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A bigger safety margine vs. cost of becoming a pilot?


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#1 r22butters

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 19:47

I keep hearing the word "safety" when they praise this new trainer.

Now I know that the R22 was not designed as a trainer, but in my experience (even as a heavy guy always flying dual at MGW) it has handled that job perfectly,...and most importantly, in my fifteen years of flying the R22, I HAVE NEVER FELT AS IF I WERE "NOT SAFE" while flying it!

The reason the R22 became so successful was that its price opened up helicopter flying to a lot of new people.

This new Cabri seems just the opposite. Its more expensive, which I would think, is just going to put helicopter flying further beyond the reach of many who can barely afford it now in the 22!?

Learning how to fly in a Cabri is like learning how to drive in a brand new Cadillac. Sure its bigger, has more modern features, and is "safer" to learn in than an old Mustang from the 80's,...but is it really worth the extra price to have "a bigger safety margin for low time pilots"?

Did/do you guys really not feel safe in the 22?



Well after fifteen and a half years they finally went from saying "the pilot shortage is coming", to "the pilot shortage is here!"  Yep, 2018, year of the pilot shortage!  

 

,...didn't seem that big a shortage though?  In fact if you blinked, you'd of missed it,...me, I was out taking a wiz,...dammit!  :lol:


#2 takefootoff

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 22:16

I've sat in a cabri and I gotta say that low timers/students sure don't need that level of luxury.

The thing had keyless entry and iPad docking stations and some sweet upholstery.

#3 Eric Hunt

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 22:17

If you want to learn to drive in a car that has drum brakes, no power assisted steering or brakes, vacuum wipers that stop when you want to accelerate, no synchro on first, and no heater or seat belts - go for it. It will be really cheap.

 

if you survive, you will think of yourself as a MAN! 

 

Why not do it in something better? Yes, it is more costly. But it will be more enjoyable than wrestling the little plastic parrot with the wobbly cyclic that the poor instructor has to hold up high. The seats will be more comfortable, so you might not get Lumbarobinsonitis. And you can carry a couple of Bertha Butts without raising a sweat.



#4 r22butters

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 23:46

If you want to learn to drive in a car that has drum brakes, no power assisted steering or brakes, vacuum wipers that stop when you want to accelerate, no synchro on first, and no heater or seat belts - go for it. It will be really cheap.
 
if you survive, you will think of yourself as a MAN! 
 
Why not do it in something better? Yes, it is more costly. But it will be more enjoyable than wrestling the little plastic parrot with the wobbly cyclic that the poor instructor has to hold up high. The seats will be more comfortable, so you might not get Lumbarobinsonitis. And you can carry a couple of Bertha Butts without raising a sweat.


Come on now, you're describing a car from the 60's. I should know I learned how to drive in that car,...and you forgot the non-breakaway steering wheel that would impale you in a head on collision!

Your analogy better fits the Schweizer 300CB. No governor, no low-rpm warning system, weak engine, autos like a brick, ball-busting cyclic, and a seat that makes you wish you were born without a spine!

By comparison the R22 has disk brakes in the front, power steering, power brakes, an automatic gearbox, seat belts, that breakaway steering wheel, a body that will crumple to absorb the shock of a collision, and warning lights!,...funny, it just hit me that my old '65 Mustang had no warning lights, I'm so used to them now.

I feel infinitely safer in the R22!

,...and for less money!

Well after fifteen and a half years they finally went from saying "the pilot shortage is coming", to "the pilot shortage is here!"  Yep, 2018, year of the pilot shortage!  

 

,...didn't seem that big a shortage though?  In fact if you blinked, you'd of missed it,...me, I was out taking a wiz,...dammit!  :lol:


#5 Hand_Grenade_Pilot

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:14

Come on now, you're describing a car from the 60's. I should know I learned how to drive in that car,...and you forgot the non-breakaway steering wheel that would impale you in a head on collision!
Your analogy better fits the Schweizer 300CB. No governor, no low-rpm warning system, weak engine, autos like a brick, ball-busting cyclic, and a seat that makes you wish you were born without a spine!
By comparison the R22 has disk brakes in the front, power steering, power brakes, an automatic gearbox, seat belts, that breakaway steering wheel, a body that will crumple to absorb the shock of a collision, and warning lights!,...funny, it just hit me that my old '65 Mustang had no warning lights, I'm so used to them now.
I feel infinitely safer in the R22!
,...and for less money!

The R22 is cheaper and relatively fast; thats about where the advantages end. Its a very flimsy aircraft; weak landing gear and virtually no rollover protection. Compared to the S300 which has heavy-duty shocks on the skids, a thick metal tube protecting the mast which offers some rollover protection and a rotor system with more inertia.

Manual throttle is a plus for initial training; down the road makes dealing with governor failiures a breeze. You'd be surprised how many 'professional' pilots can barely handle flying without a governor.

As the S300 is becoming harder and harder to find, the Cabri G2 is the next logical step. The R22 fits your needs perfectly (flying for fun on the cheap) but its not ideal for flight training. As a CFI you want an aircraft that is very forgiving; it can very easily mean the difference between a sloppy auto and an accident. And if enough schools use the G2, I bet pricing will be pretty competitive with the R22.

Plus Im 6'4'' and 200lbs, so I hated the R22 the second I sat in it 😜
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Aviation is a cruel mistress. When she's not taking your money, she's coming up with creative ways to kill you.

#6 r22butters

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:03

The R22 is cheaper and relatively fast; thats about where the advantages end. Its a very flimsy aircraft; weak landing gear and virtually no rollover protection. Compared to the S300 which has heavy-duty shocks on the skids, a thick metal tube protecting the mast which offers some rollover protection and a rotor system with more inertia.
Manual throttle is a plus for initial training; down the road makes dealing with governor failiures a breeze. You'd be surprised how many 'professional' pilots can barely handle flying without a governor.
As the S300 is becoming harder and harder to find, the Cabri G2 is the next logical step. The R22 fits your needs perfectly (flying for fun on the cheap) but its not ideal for flight training. As a CFI you want an aircraft that is very forgiving; it can very easily mean the difference between a sloppy auto and an accident. And if enough schools use the G2, I bet pricing will be pretty competitive with the R22.
Plus Im 6'4'' and 200lbs, so I hated the R22 the second I sat in it 😜


First time I sat in an S300 I said, "holy sh*t my back, hope this pain doesn't last the entire flight!?",...it did!

As for training with a manual throttle? With just about 60 hours as a brand new R22 pilot, I jump in an S300 and had no difficulty what so ever flying without a governor! Also flew an Enstrom which had no correlator either,...no problem! That "training with a manual throttle is better" claim is HIGHLY OVERRATED!

So it can handle a rollover better, oh' joy. My commercial instructor had a rollover in the 22,...two days later he was back to teaching! Even his student was back by the end of the week.

,...and you may think it has more inertia, but it autos like sh*t! The R22 is A LOT nicer to auto!

In the end though, if the S300 was so much better than the R22, the 22 should not have been able to take its job, as (like the Cabri) the S300 was touted as "safer"! For that matter, so was the Enstrom, yet it never de-throned the 22!

I can understand CFI's prefering the Cabri, Hell, my knees would have preferred the R44, but my wallet insisted on the R22!

,...but you're right the R22 fits "my" needs perfectly, plus its tons of fun to fly!

Now if one day the R22 and Cabri are sitting next to each other on the ramp, for the same rental price,...who knows?

,...ha, who am I kidding, I'd pick the 22, that Cabri just has too many blades! :)

Well after fifteen and a half years they finally went from saying "the pilot shortage is coming", to "the pilot shortage is here!"  Yep, 2018, year of the pilot shortage!  

 

,...didn't seem that big a shortage though?  In fact if you blinked, you'd of missed it,...me, I was out taking a wiz,...dammit!  :lol:


#7 Eric Hunt

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 16:28

 

 

Now if one day the R22 and Cabri are sitting next to each other on the ramp

...I would walk past them to the S76 that is waiting for my gentle touch...


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#8 Hand_Grenade_Pilot

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:24

First time I sat in an S300 I said, "holy sh*t my back, hope this pain doesn't last the entire flight!?",...it did!
As for training with a manual throttle? With just about 60 hours as a brand new R22 pilot, I jump in an S300 and had no difficulty what so ever flying without a governor! Also flew an Enstrom which had no correlator either,...no problem! That "training with a manual throttle is better" claim is HIGHLY OVERRATED!
So it can handle a rollover better, oh' joy. My commercial instructor had a rollover in the 22,...two days later he was back to teaching! Even his student was back by the end of the week.
,...and you may think it has more inertia, but it autos like sh*t! The R22 is A LOT nicer to auto!
In the end though, if the S300 was so much better than the R22, the 22 should not have been able to take its job, as (like the Cabri) the S300 was touted as "safer"! For that matter, so was the Enstrom, yet it never de-throned the 22!
I can understand CFI's prefering the Cabri, Hell, my knees would have preferred the R44, but my wallet insisted on the R22!
,...but you're right the R22 fits "my" needs perfectly, plus its tons of fun to fly!
Now if one day the R22 and Cabri are sitting next to each other on the ramp, for the same rental price,...who knows?
,...ha, who am I kidding, I'd pick the 22, that Cabri just has too many blades! :)

While the S300 autos like a brick (as do all helicopters with more than two blades) the rotor rpm does not fluctuate as quickly as the R22; I found it much easier to manage in autos. But I'll admit the seats in the S300 are pretty terrible. It also flies in a nose low attitude which will really mess with your back. Despite that, to this day I'm still puzzled why the R22 was taken up by most flight schools; it is a relatively minor difference in operating cost.

But we'll have to agree to disagree 😉

On the note of safety though, by no means do I consider the R22 an unsafe aircraft as long as a competent pilot is at the controls. Which can be said of any helicopter; plenty of pilots crashing perfectly good 407s, Astars, longrangers etc.

And the R22 is a much better trainer then something like a jet ranger or the EC145; flying a squirrelly, underpowered helicopter will teach you a lot finesse and good power management. And obviously huge savings in training costs.

And if you ever get lower back discomfort while flying, pick up one of these:

https://www.amazon.c...nflating lumbar

It's amazing, cant imagine not having one. Within 30 minutes of flying anything my back starts to cramp up. With the lumbar pillow I'm good to go all day.
Aviation is a cruel mistress. When she's not taking your money, she's coming up with creative ways to kill you.




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