Father and Son Learning to Fly: EC-120 too much start with?

[arotrhd]

DiscoNomad-

 

I think your decision for a 120 is a good start & I wouldn't try to encourage another helo. Before moving forward, I'll reinforce the fact that you should make it a priority to get to HeliExpo in Orlando (I'm sure you are already aware, but just in case...). HAI just sent out the course listings and the Manufacturer forums (AEC/EC120) is something that will assist you in making your decision - Lively discussions from AEC and operators, the good, the bad and the worse kinda stuff, + you'll be able to quickly establish great contacts/operators who use the 120. You'll definitely get a feel for AEC products and will probably get a better feel for upgrading to a 350/130/135 in the future, or maybe a totally different airframe. I understood that you'll have access to a very experienced instructor; that said, I would recommend that you guys head off to a factory course at some point to get the most current training (AEC/EC120 in this case) - not that your instructor isn't capable, but to compliment his training. I would also follow up with an operator that specialized in mountain training as you have indicated that your flights will be Napa - Tahoe...some nice country, but very unforgiving. I would recommend Western Ops (Rialto, CA) WITH your aircraft - Pete and Bob are absolutely amazing. As pointed out earlier, the 120 can be a little shy on power, and the terrain & altitude are something that you should have a VERY good feel for as the margins will be reduced.

 

 

Personally, I would probably pursue a B412 if I could trade places...a nice looking girl with a big, fat, sexy a$$. If I could afford the airframe, I'd probably be able to afford the fuel. But for now...

 

-WATCH FOR THE PATTERNS, WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[DiscoNomad]

Excellent information from everyone. Training training training is what I need. Lots of it. It's going to be a fun ride. I agree totally with factory training as an amendment to my other training.

[Spike]

Thank you guys. Sorry I was trying to reply earlier but for some reason it got moderated and wasn't posting. Yes we are not going to buy a helicopter to train in. We are going to train first and build hours first in the R22s and R44s they have at Golden Gate Helicopter School. I'm sure once we build even the first 25-50 hours we are going to have a far better idea for what we want. I just wanted to get a feel from you, after we do complete our training would it be too much to jump into a full IFR ready dual turbine helicopter or are we better off with a stepping stone. It seems that most of you all are saying what I anticipated, which is that a helicopter is a helicopter and given the right training and time you can learn to fly anything safely. I also gather that some of you go as far to say that yes if you got the money go for the more redundant helicopter even if it is your first bird.

 

One questions which was brought up which may limit us is insurance. Owning a Lear 55 and a Lear 24 over the years we have an idea as to what it may cost to insure but since we are going to be the pilots with low hours, should we fear not being able to find reasonable insurance for such an expensive helicopter such as the EC-120 or EC-135, period? Also am I dreaming to think that I will be able to find for under $4-5 million a newish, perfect condition, EC-135 in executive/comfortable people transport trim that is well equipped for full IFR? Prices online seem to be all over the place. If the case starts to build against the EC-135 we may have no choice but to start looking at something smaller like a EC-120 as our first. Either way we sure are having fun and can't wait to get started building some serious hours.

 

Cheers everyone,

Christian

 

Thanks for the clarification. Some of us work (launch) from time to time and quickly reading a thread of posts can lead to assumptions.

 

When considering a purchase you first need to identify what your mission is (even if it’s just personal transportation) and develop your aircraft around that mission. Every machine has it own unique qualities which may or may not be a deciding factor. Plus, the aircraft itself is just one element of the equation. That is, not all of the manufactures are equal. Some provide better customer service then others and would be the reason why this should be at the top of your list of considerations when it comes time to make a decision. If it were me, I’d step up the complexity over time. Furthermore, you are 100% correct with the insurance issue and may lead to employing a pro until you satisfy the underwriters. Luckily for you, the Bay Area has quite a few locals who are extremely experienced and would be happy to help you out in any way they can.

[rick1128]

Having helped many pilots upgrade from a basic training machine into a much more advanced aircraft, I might be able to give a little insight. Yes the insurance is going to be stiff. Plus they will probably put some additional restrictions on your policy. You will have to go to factory school, so plan on it. Very likely they will also require you to have a mentor pilot for a certain amount of flight hours. My experience has been that 50 to 100 hours is the norm, depending on your experience level. Quite possibly the insurance company will require an intermediate step like a certain amount of time in an R44 or similar. Being restricted on landing areas is also common. Plus plan on shopping around. Some underwriters are more willing to work with you than others.

 

I would spend a little time talking with your agent to get some idea which machines would be easier to get coverage on. Heliexpo would be a great place to start. All the major helicopter agents and underwriters are there as well as almost all the manufacturers.

 

Take a good look at what you are looking to accomplish with this helicopter. What do you foresee as the normal mission. Range, passengers, areas of operation, etc. Not all helicopters will fulfill your needs and requirements. There is no sense getting a helicopter that looks cool, if it can't accomplish what you need it to. I would make a list of the helicopters you are interested in and start your research. It is nothing you will need to do immediately. First get access to the RFM to look at performance. Which helicopters will do what you want. Be sure to add a little fudge factor into your numbers to give you some margin. With this list, start looking. However, since you are most likely married, you will need to involve your wife in this process. Make sure she will be comfortable in the rear seats. Keep in mind if Momma isn't happy, NO BODY is happy.

 

The Maintenance and operations meeting (M&O) generally in my experience is primarily a maintenance meeting. Go, and get the service reps' business cards. I would keep a copy of these cards at home and a copy somewhere in the helicopter. I would talk with other owners, pilots and mechanics about each machine. What they like and dislike, where the problem areas are and so on. A big also here is check on the availability of spares. You could have the most perfect helicopter in the world, but you can't get spares in a timely manner, you can't enjoy your helicopter. While many pilots on this site will tell you how great a certain machine is, it is from their view point. Your needs and want could be quite different.

 

Good luck.

[iChris]

Luckily for you, the Bay Area has quite a few locals who are extremely experienced and would be happy to help you out in any way they can.

 

Christian

 

There are two police air units in your area that fly the EC-120. The San Jose PD and the Santa Clara County Sheriff both have individuals there that would be happy to give you some insight into the EC-120. You'll receive excellent information less the sales talk.

 

You can contact Rob (408 808-4770) at the Sheriff's unit Sunday – Tuesday.

 

Bill or Mike (408 277-5424) at the San Jose police unit Wednesday – Saturday.

 

Rob is a ATP/CFI who has trained private owners in their EC-120 and other models.

 

You also have an individual private owner of an Agusta-139 a few hangers down and behind the tower from Golden Gate Helicopters. They went from a prior Charles Schwab owned Bell 412 to the current Agusta-139.

 

Talk with your next-door neighbor, South Bay with the Agusta-109 (I think there still around) same bldg as Golden Gate.

 

Stanford Life Flight flies an EC-145 (650 723-5578). Ask for James.

 

You'll learn a lot from any of these individuals.

Edited December 30, 2010 by iChris

[DiscoNomad]

Having helped many pilots upgrade from a basic training machine into a much more advanced aircraft, I might be able to give a little insight. Yes the insurance is going to be stiff. Plus they will probably put some additional restrictions on your policy. You will have to go to factory school, so plan on it. Very likely they will also require you to have a mentor pilot for a certain amount of flight hours. ................

 

 

Thank you for this. Excellent advice. I think our most normal mission will be flying from our hangar at the Napa Airport to our home/business also in Napa to pick up the fam and luggage, then heading to either Tahoe (Truckee Airport) or to Carmel or to Laguna Seca Raceway which we spend lots of time at frequently. Beyond that we are excited to do some longer trips but as for utility we need to be comfortable taking at least 5 people and luggage (can't tell the girls the family to "pack light" or else war) so we need a bird that has plenty of loading capacity EC-120 is a little tight on this I understand but has ample cargo area. Having a useful load of 1,653 lbs - a standard fuel capacity of 708 lbs leaves only ~935 lbs for crew minus drainable oil (10lbs?). I don't know if thats going to cut it considering the weight of my family (including me or dad as pilot) breaks down to roughly (185+185+135+140+160) 805 lbs leaving only ~130 lbs for luggage. No I haven't ran these numbers through a balance calculation to see if my CG is still within limits. Now this is right up the max weight and I know I usually wouldn't fill the fuel right to the max for every mission but I assume it certainly isn't advised to approach the max of anything on aircraft. What's a safe buffer? So thats why I feel like I need the higher capacity of an EC-135 or similar. Also noise is an issue since we will be flying into our residence which is in the county. We have checked with local regs and we are in the clear but still its best to try and NOT be overtly obnoxious to your neighbors even though they are pretty far away.

 

Anyway thanks for the info, and the research process is certainly fun.

[DiscoNomad]

Christian

 

There are two police air units in your area that fly the EC-120. The San Jose PD and the Santa Clara County Sheriff both have individuals there that would be happy to give you some insight into the EC-120. You'll receive excellent information less the sales talk................

 

Tremendous! This site is invaluable. Thanks!

[Spike]

Christian

 

There are two police air units in your area that fly the EC-120. The San Jose PD and the Santa Clara County Sheriff both have individuals there that would be happy to give you some insight into the EC-120. You'll receive excellent information less the sales talk.

 

You can contact Rob (408 808-4770) at the Sheriff's unit Sunday – Tuesday.

 

Bill or Mike (408 277-5424) at the San Jose police unit Wednesday – Saturday.

 

Rob is a ATP/CFI who has trained private owners in their EC-120 and other models.

 

You also have an individual private owner of an Agusta-139 a few hangers down and behind the tower from Golden Gate Helicopters. They went from a prior Charles Schwab owned Bell 412 to the current Agusta-139.

 

Talk with your next-door neighbor, South Bay with the Agusta-109 (I think there still around) same bldg as Golden Gate.

 

Stanford Life Flight flies an EC-145 (650 723-5578). Ask for James.

 

You'll learn a lot from any of these individuals.

 

I concur with gentlemen mentioned above. In addition you can try Ron Carter at SF Helicopter tours at (650) 635-4500 or (510) 865-1035. He has experience in the Bell products and can give you the non-sales donwload. Plus, the guys over at Heliinc have a bunch of experience as well. In fact, one of them is/was a part-time instructor at GGH. Plus, a couple of them moonlight in one of the 109’s there at HWD.

[rick1128]

Thank you for this. Excellent advice. I think our most normal mission will be flying from our hangar at the Napa Airport to our home/business also in Napa to pick up the fam and luggage, then heading to either Tahoe (Truckee Airport) or to Carmel or to Laguna Seca Raceway which we spend lots of time at frequently. Beyond that we are excited to do some longer trips but as for utility we need to be comfortable taking at least 5 people and luggage (can't tell the girls the family to "pack light" or else war) so we need a bird that has plenty of loading capacity EC-120 is a little tight on this I understand but has ample cargo area. Having a useful load of 1,653 lbs - a standard fuel capacity of 708 lbs leaves only ~935 lbs for crew minus drainable oil (10lbs?). I don't know if thats going to cut it considering the weight of my family (including me or dad as pilot) breaks down to roughly (185+185+135+140+160) 805 lbs leaving only ~130 lbs for luggage. No I haven't ran these numbers through a balance calculation to see if my CG is still within limits. Now this is right up the max weight and I know I usually wouldn't fill the fuel right to the max for every mission but I assume it certainly isn't advised to approach the max of anything on aircraft. What's a safe buffer? So thats why I feel like I need the higher capacity of an EC-135 or similar. Also noise is an issue since we will be flying into our residence which is in the county. We have checked with local regs and we are in the clear but still its best to try and NOT be overtly obnoxious to your neighbors even though they are pretty far away.

 

Anyway thanks for the info, and the research process is certainly fun.

 

As for asking women to pack light, it has been my experience that they have some gene in their bodies that doesn't allow them to pack less than every stitch of clothing they own for an over night. But changing what things are packed in could help.

 

Once you said Tahoe, the EC120 became a non-starter. Helicopters lose a lot of performance at altitude. Also consider that the EC135 is a twin engine helicopter. This factor will not only raise the complexity factor but also your operating and insurance costs. And a twin engine helicopter is not necessarily safer than a single engine helicopter. I would look at the EC130 and the Bell 407. See what it would take you to get out of Tahoe with full bags and passengers at ISA +40. How much fuel can you carry? What altitude can you climb to? What is the range with a minimum of 30 minutes reserve? Then keep yourself 10 to 15% better than these numbers. As you get more experienced, you can reduce the extra margin. But initially it is better to give yourself as much cushion as possible.

Edited December 31, 2010 by rick1128

[DiscoNomad]

Yes it seems EC-130 B4 is in first place for my good fit list... Anything can happen though. Awesome info guys thanks!