CFI logging Cross Country Time

[C of G]

Building on the last question regarding logging landings:

 

Can a CFI log cross country time for a flight that (s)he does not perform the landing on?

 

We established that the landing is only credited towards the sole manipulator of the controls.

 

So:

 

No landing=No cross country

 

Or does it?

[zippiesdrainage]

Well it may be splitting hairs, but I believe that since as per the definition of PIC as it pertains to CFIs "The person who has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight"

 

Even if you don't physically perform the landing you are responsible for it, you are judging the landing, the performance and ready to in an instant grab ahold of the controls at any time to ensure that it happens. Your hands may never touch the controls but in a round-a-bout way, you're still performing it as you talk through the steps and motions of how it is performed. I personally always have a loose grip on the collective even with guys doing CFI training, just in case a I'm required for a quick reaction to avoid a bird strike or any other event that may come up, and so my hand may not be pressing the collective down to the ground, but I am "on" the controls, and therefore I log it.

 

 

PS Does this mean that I can sit in the backseat of the R44 and at any random time reach up and touch the cyclic and log the entire flight if I can still argue that I'm exercising my CFI rating and it's a training flight if I tell the pilot what to do?

[C of G]

I can see your logic, but I was hoping for a reference.

 

I started a thread on the general section, and it's pretty clear that it's sole manipulator of the controls that gets credit for the landing. As for a light touch? Hopefully you are not manipulating them. (The main reason I dislike the 22/44 for training is the lack of immediate control location)

 

And,as for back seat instruction? Well, the FAA says if a student is in the back seat, and is still receiving verbal training.... he's a passenger, not part of the flight crew. So the same logic applies for the CFI in the back. He's a pax.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2007/Olshock%20inter1.pdf

[iChris]

Can a CFI log cross country time for a flight that (s)he does not perform the landing on?

 

We established that the landing is only credited towards the sole manipulator of the controls.

 

 

We didn’t quite establish that across the board, only under 61.57 [a] and 61.57 [ b ]. We've now moved on to a Logging issue.

 

Unless such is stated ["the person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls"] such may not always be the required case in fact.

 

Example:

 

'In your request for interpretation you cite to the Legal Interpretation to Ron Levy, dated August 7, 2008, in which Chief Counsel's office states that a CFI (instrument) may log approaches that a student flies when those approaches are conducted in actual instrument flight conditions, and this would count for instrument currency requirements under § 61.57[c]. Section 61.57[c] is distinguishable from section 61.57[a] and [ b ] , however, because section 61.57[a] and [ b ] require that "the person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls" whereas section 61.57[c] requires the person to have "performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations……"

 

 

61.51 [e][3] - A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

 

61.51 [4] Cross-country time means—

Except as provided in paragraphs [4] [ii] through [4] [vi] of this section, time acquired during flight—

Edited August 4, 2012 by iChris

[C of G]

That's what I was pointing towards. Surely the only person credited for the landing, is the sole manipulator of the controls, and I believe that's bashed out.

 

But, like you presented, the CFI, acting as PIC gets credit for all the "Flight time". And of course it goes on to define the "cross country" as flight time including a landing, but doesn't state who must do the landing. (paraphrasing so I won't have to cut and paste)

 

So, yes, all loggable.

 

I hope that this is all taken in the spirit of promoting discussion and furthering the critical thinking process. Also, to not be so quick to take someone's word for something without a reference from a credible authority.

[Pohi]

That would be poopy if a CFI couldn't log the time. That would result in CFI's getting a fraction of xc time throught their career.