2 seat helo under $25K??

[doug rooney]

HI, new to the forum and helicopters. Have a Private fixed wing Cert I earned back in the 70's but had not flown since 1982 until a couple of weeks ago when I had an introductory helicopter lesson in an R-44. I am 65 Y/O and can no longer pass an FAA medical. have never been denied, just haven't gone for one. Interested in an LSA 2 seat helo if there even is such a thing in my price range. Any info greatly appreciated! Doug

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

sorry to break the bad news to you but there at this time is not an LSA helicopter.

 

now that said, the Mosquito air, helicopter is Ultra light. and you can find one of those used for around $25,000 and sometimes under.

 

http://www.innovator.mosquito.net.nz/mbbs2/mosquito.asp

 

they are very good flying helicopters, I have a buddy that has one.

 

you might also want to conceder a Gyroplane.

 

come to Bensen days, and you can see the Mosquito and Gyros flying.

 

http://www.bensendays.us.com/

[doug rooney]

Thanks Dreamin. I didn't think there was one but wasn't sure. am looking at a RAF gyro which is 2 seat but sure would be nice not having to have a runway. Still undecided I guess between a Mosquito or RAF. Have read a lot about the Mosquitoes

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

I have 14 hours dual in an RAF-2000 GTX, they are great machines, just be sure to get a horz. stab for it, it is much safer and flys about hands off with the H stab. do your research and make sure the RAF has all the updates, also they are having fuel tank issues due to ethanol in the fuel.

 

I trained with Gary Neal in S.C.

[doug rooney]

Yes, the one I'm looking at has an H stab. I wonder if ethanol free premium fuel would solve the problem?? very hard to find ethanol free 87 octane these days.

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

yes with out Ethanol, you are ok, what I under stand,but I have not really looked into it much since I don't have one, is the Ethanol is breaking down the glue or something like that in the tank where it is seemed together. at anypoint it causes a bad leak.

 

go to www.Rotaryforum.com and search RAF-2000 and you can find the Info.

 

also may want to keep in mind RAF is now owned by a company in South Africa. so getting replacement parts is going to cost a bit for shipping. but I have not really heard any thing bad about RAFSA. just take time and do some research. depending on your budget, there are many new 2 place Gyros that fly much better then the old RAF. what I mean is, they are not bad machines for what they are, but they are an old design and in the last 5 years their have been so many to gyros that are more advanced. sure they cost more, but still not as much as an R-22 of used Hughes.

[Pohi]

I've been told to put fuel stabilizer in fuel to reduce (eliminate?) Ethanol for engines that don't play nice with ethanol. I use it in my boat and all other small engines (lawn mower, chainsaws, power washers, etc)

 

I had to replace the whole fuel system in my motorcycle because it turned my fuel lines (in the tank) to goo after sitting for a year. It was my fault for not prepping it prior to storage, but the ethanol was what the mechanic said caused the problems.

[doug rooney]

I use Sta-Bil (fuel stabilizer) In all my things that sit for awhile such as the lawn mower. Not sure I would be real comfortable Using it in an aircraft.. Just as soon fork out a bit more for premium. I am looking for something that is not "out in the wind" Dreamin. Like the enclosed cockpit. Can you think of any gyros that meet that criteria? Thanks

[avbug]

Aircraft fuel tanks are generally sealed internally (and usually externally too) with a two part polymer sealant such as Flamemaster 3204, or PRC 1440. This sealant is mixed in two parts and cures over a matter of days to become resistant to the effects of most fuels. Some systems only use bladders.

 

Often the fuel is coated with a top seal such as 3600 or 1005, which is a reddish snot slimy substance, based in MEK, which penetrates the sealant and creates a sealing surface to fill pinholes or imperfections.

 

The topcoat is impervious to avgas and to jet fuel, but not to ethanol and some alcohols. It tends to come off with ethanol, and can plug fuel passages, filters, and screens, as well as injectors and nozzles, leading to an engine failure.

 

I just spent nearly 3 weeks sealing a large fuel cell (and am still a bit nauseated from some of the chemicals). It will be fine so long as ethanol isn't put in the tank, which shouldn't be a problem given that it's for jet fuel. Home builders using the same products, however, have been caught off guard when the material was recommended to them by others, but failure occurred with ethanol present. Ethanol can affect other fuel system components, as well, including seals and hoses, and those using mogas (car fuel) in their aircraft under STC (or illegally, without an STC) often find that problems develop with injection and carburetion, as well as other fuel system components; this is particularly true of aircraft fueled with mogas that are allowed to sit for extended periods.

 

Regarding gyroplanes, you can get some good input from the Popular Rotorcraft Assn, which maintains a list of gyro qualified instructors. A horizontal stabilizer is designed to promote pitch stability and is one common method today of helping reduce the number of "bunting" mishaps involving gyros. The other has been an ongoing effort to lower the center of gravity. With the RAF aircraft the most advanced versions were modified RAF 2000's by Groen Brothers. I had a chance to fly some of their aircraft at the factory in Arizona, and they were very stable, very nice flying machines. They weren't cheap, but the factory took their product very seriously and their addition of a complete cruciform tail behind the propeller, as well as other changes to the airframe and engine, made for a really nice product. I nearly bought one.

 

Some of the gyros out there such as the Magni, are excellent products, but you'll pay a premium for them. Some of the more affordable gyros, many of which are homebuilt plans-built models from early Ken Brock designs, are to be avoided, or given very careful thought. As in all things, if the deal seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Edited April 9, 2015 by avbug

[doug rooney]

Most informative Av! Thanks

[avbug]

One clarification on a comment that I made above; an ongoing effort in the gyro community has been to lower the center of gravity in the aircraft, but the real issue wasn't so much that as the centerline of thrust along the engine, relative to the most variable weight and balance component: the pilot. What's been done is raising the seats to place the pilot (and CG in line with the center of thrust on the engine, or in other words, along the middle of the propeller arc or in line with the crankshaft or reduction output shaft. This technically raises the CG, rather than lowers it, but it becomes a matter in such cases of being unable to lower the engine any more due to propeller clearance.

 

A high thrust line for the propeller, relative to the center of gravity, creates a pitching down moment, and under certain circumstances some gyros (especially older designs without the centerline adjustments or horizontal stabilizers) could enter a "bunting" situation in which the gyro pitches forward and down. Given that gyros are often flown at lower altitudes, bunting has frequently proven extremely dangerous or fatal. A big source of the problem was aircraft design and lack of consistency and controls in the design, especially among experimental (home built) early gyros. I've seen some scary looking examples. In many of the more modern gyros, this is far less an issue.

 

Another issue with gyro mishaps in times past has been lack of qualified training. Early in the gyro world (when I say "early" I don't mean in the prehistoric days closer to the Wrights; I mean in the last 20 years) people were teaching themselves to fly their gyros. Not a desirable thing. A lot of the "old hands" at flying gyros today have had several crack-ups, and are wiser for having survived them. Some gyro clubs or locations used simulators in truck beds, or that were towed behind trucks to provide some rudimentary instruction.

 

The FAA limited commercial instruction in experimental aircraft, and some years ago began issuing authorization waivers to allow certificated instructors to provide training in experimental gyros (type certificated designs are very few and far between, and old, and not available for training). Consequently, the quality and availability of training has increased dramatically, thanks in large part to efforts by the PRA and others.

 

Gyros are (can be) very safe platforms, if the user stays within reasonable limitations. They don't suffer in an engine failure; they're always in a state of autorotation (save for bunting); they don't have a rotor RPM droop like a helicopter, and the rotor is always freewheeling, driven by airflow from beneath the rotor disc. They actually fly more like an airplane from a pilot perspective, but with many of the benefits of a helicopter. What most gyros cannot do (and a few can) is a vertical takeoff, sometimes referred to as a "jump" takeoff. Instead, in a gyro the rotor is pre-rotated either by hand or by a small motor or drive, and then a takeoff is made on a runway or clear area. The takeoff is minimal in distance in many cases; the distance of the takeoff is whatever is required to spin the rotor enough to fly, and that distance is reduced by pre-rotating before takeoff.

 

Approach and landing is slow, and it's common to land at less than a walk in forward speed, and even back up after landing from the residual rotor inertia, with an aft stick (essentially a cyclic). A gyro isn't as complex as a helicopter, and it's more forgiving, and generally much less expensive (though not necessarily so).

 

You can go on Barnstormers and find various gyros for affordable prices, but I'd caution you again to ensure you approach a purchase by taking someone who really knows them into your confidence and involving them in your decision. I'd recommend an instructor who's familiar with the specific one that you choose. As with anything, a thorough pre-buy maintenance inspection (and flight) is essential, and it's always best to have that done by someone familiar with the specific type.

[doug rooney]

Lots of good info there AV. Have my eye on a gyro in calif. Here's what the owner says about it. Sure don't know where I'd find an instructor out there to check it out if I go. Will try and post a pic of it. Looking at a project Mini 500 helo as well in Tennessee. Single seat vs 2 is my dilemma and CERTAINLY no time to buy something that turns out to be a lemon.

 

 

has a 2.2 sub engine, if I remember about 160 - 180 hours time on aircraft and engine.
I did the drop keel and lowered the engine 6 inches and put on a boyer stab. She is almost CLT and flies like a dream.
has a new mast bushing and control rod ends.
New updated hub bar.
brake lever mod inside.
new pre rotor lever and new cobra grips inside for both joy sticks in cockpit.
new updated upper control rod cross piece by rotor head.
comes with rebuilt pickled FI engine in create. ($2000.00)
and a nav dat system ($ 1200.0) not installed as of yet.
two sets of extra main gear tires (new) has a nice radio (not a hand held)
new rudder cables,fuel lines,fuel filters,new tires ( 2 Main)
Cerma chromed exhaust.

probably even more that I just don't recall at this time.
Has a N number and is registered.

Asking $24K This is a way better price then buying a kit of any kind for a two seat, and then going through the whole registration process

all the hard work is done.

Just go get lessons, this is a must!

Always been in a hanger and is vary clean.

There is a picture of it here under "decision time"

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11

[doug rooney]

Here is the build thread of the Mini 500 I'm looking at

 

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36651&highlight=barney+bahle

[doug rooney]

Have decided on going with a one seat helo still hopefully under $25K. Need an enclosed cockpit. Don't want one of those flying lawn mowers out in the wind. Any suggestions? Thanks

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

Good luck. even the Mosquito air is over $25,000 now. might find a used one for that price.

if you have a machine shop you might can build a Sky twister by Ben showers, it was an updated A/W hobby copter.

it did have a wind shield.

[doug rooney]

I know it's a long shot and will just have to be patient in my quest to find one Dreamin. Mosquito would be great if I could find one at a reasonable price. No machine shop here. Might have to expand my price range to $30k (don't tell my wife) and even that may not be enough. Right now, I think my choices are the mini 500 or mosquito.

[avbug]

I use Sta-Bil (fuel stabilizer) In all my things that sit for awhile such as the lawn mower. Not sure I would be real comfortable Using it in an aircraft.. Just as soon fork out a bit more for premium. I am looking for something that is not "out in the wind" Dreamin. Like the enclosed cockpit. Can you think of any gyros that meet that criteria? Thanks

 

Doug, a side note going back to a previous comment; increasing the octane on your fuel at the pump (to premium, for example) does not increase fuel "stability." You're increasing the antiknock index of the fuel, or specifically its resistance to detonation in higher compression and turbocharged engines.

 

When it comes to aircraft additives, be really careful about putting things in fuel, or using the wrong fuel (including automotive fuels in aircraft engines).

[doug rooney]

Thanks AV. I did not know that about premium gasoline. As for auto fuel in "aircraft engines", the ones I've considered are a Mini 500 with a 1000cc Yamaha engine in it and an RAF gyro with a 2.2L Subaru engine. We have a 2L engine in our Subaru Forester so I'm thinking "motorcycle and auto engines" or am I missing something?

[avbug]

For automotive engines, yes, and no. At lower altitudes, yes, in systems specifically designed and engineered for automotive fuel. Automotive fuel does tend to deteriorate in a tank faster than avgas, and it does tend to lead to vapor lock more easily than avgas, in hot climates or at high density altitudes. Be careful about what fuel is used and the additives, such as ethanol. I'd be leary of lesser engines, especially two strokes and converted chainsaw, meter maid, and motorcycle/snowmobile engines.

[doug rooney]

The Yamaha is a 4 stroke. I wouldn't have a 2 stroke up there. Soooo, can one use avgas for regular engines such as the 2 I mentioned??

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

I am 65 Y/O and can no longer pass an FAA medical. have never been denied, just haven't gone for one.

 

Question, how do you plan to fly a Mini -500 if you can not pass a medical? the Mini-500 is not ultra light and they do not have a class for LSA helicopters at this time. they do have a few Gyroplanes that are LSA category. anyway here is the Link to the MH-1, John is a Friend of mine. he has done a lot of work to the design. http://www.millenniumhelicopters.com/

[doug rooney]

Even the ultralight Mosquito XEL is out for me as the Mini is I guess?? Found a Mosquito website that says no license required? Link will not post here for some reason

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

Even the ultralight Mosquito XEL is out for me as the Mini is I guess?? Found a Mosquito website that says no license required? Link will not post here for some reason

due to a reg. about safety additions to U.L. if you have the Floats, they let it still be U.L.

this is why you see so many of the XEL models with floats.

 

honestly it's the only true U.L. helicopter that is closed in.

 

but you won't find on for $25,000.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dreamin of a Commuter 2B

[doug rooney]

Thanks Dreamin. That website has kits for $34K in Alberta Canada. Looks like my price range may be increasing. That's with 10 hours helo training which I would get anyway. Sent them an email

[avbug]

Hold on a tic. You're talking about only getting ten hours of helicopter training, now?