CAA/JAA Course

[stonemonkey]

Apologies for starting yet another "Can't find the right flight school!!" topic, but!!!! After reading through numerous forums on here and vertical in Canada, I'm now even worse off than before I started, my head is fried!

 

I was originally going to do a HPPL Course in South Africa, now I'm looking at doing it all from scratch through to instructor. I've recently looked at the HAI school in Florida at the dual FAA/JAA course but recently found this site: http://www.ukft.com/index.htm . Its a school based in the states and offers internships after the instructor course. It also does the CAA/JAA duel course. Its quite pricey but qualifies you for either 800 hrs or 1500 hrs tt on completion in about 2 years (takes a breath!).

Has anyone heard of this company or know anything about it? Also any ideas on other schools offering a dual qualification would be appreciated or if you think this would be a good Idea!

 

I'm 30 and want a career change!

 

Cheers and Happy New Year

[i4iq]

Interesting site. Haven't come across them before.

 

Had a quick scan...

 

Biggest deterrent for me is paying up front for the training. If the company goes down, your cash goes up in smoke.

 

Be interested to hear if anyone has heard of Rainbow Aviation who are actually supplying the aircraft.

[stonemonkey]

I've recieved some info back from the company:

 

Total Cost: $59,995 for 800 hours of flight time in 16 to 18 months and includes:

• Total Dual/solo flight time of approximately 350 hours,

• Total helicopter time of approximately 600 hours.

• All Instructor time,

• All Classroom time,

• All Simulator time,

• All Books

• Fuel,

• Renter's insurance,

• VIP Club membership for the duration of the course

• 8 FAA Flight Examiner fees, 9 FAA Written Exam fees

• 2 FAA Medical exam fees,

• The following FAA licenses and ratings: PPL-A/H; IR-A/H; ME-A; CPL-A/H; CFI-H; CFII-H

• LAX Airport pick-up/drop-off,

• All Student Visa Fees, TSA Fees and taxes

• Student orientation and assistance throughout the course,

• 50 hours of turbine Helicopter time building

• Resume preparation assistance,

 

Does this seem a good deal?? anyone know of them?

 

If anyone else is interested I've got the rest of the details about the course.

Any help would be appreciated!

[Fly for food]

Sounds incredibly good to me - the 50 hours of turbine time at $600 per hour average is $30,000 on its own. 180 hours of helicopter piston time at a conservative $220 per hour is $39,600 then the airplane time (170 hours) at 110 per hours is another $18,700 - total so far (flight time only) - $88,300. Then all the other stuff thrown in too! - Flight examiner fees are must run around $350 per go and the visa fees are not cheap either.

 

Unless I am mistaken this may fall into the category of "too good to be true"

 

If this was about 2 years ago I would have jumped at it - but I would be wary of me losing my money if they go bust. Unless stonemonkey has his facts wrong I can't see a school doing all that and making money to stay in business.

 

fff

 

missing the devil smilie.......

[poulsej]

Stonemonkey, this is going to sound like a rant but bare with me!

 

Do you know what you want out of aviation??

 

I would love someone to tell me I'm talking bullsh1t here and I'm sure someone will!....and no, I'm not disgruntled.

 

I was your typical RAF scholarship schoolboy and left school in 1994 with a PPL(A) and 80 hours under my belt with about 30 military rotary hours all courtesy of the RAF. I took every piece of advice I could and did a degree....one thing led to another and money drew me into IT. A few years later I sat back and realised I had messed up. To make amends I revalidated my PPL(A) and bought a fixed wing share.

 

3 years later and a couple of hundred hours older I still hadn't fixed my aviation cravings. March 2005 I realised I had enough cash hidden away to complete an ab-initio to ATPL JAA (rotary) course in the US (HAI to be precise!). I still had loads of aviation contacts so I called them....every single one of them. Yes...yet again I needed advice.

 

To my surprise they were all extremely negative about my prospects. One even suggested taking every penny I had and spending it on a frozen ATPL (fixed wing) at Oxford Aviation (the same place I trained for my RAF scholarship!). I would love to say he was an old f@rt but sadly he is one of the most influential rotary aviators in the UK so I struggled to discount his words. I could tell you all his reasons for the doom and gloom but it's depressing and I don't do depressing.

 

Anyway...I ploughed on ignoring all the advice and started calling training schools. Prospects for remaining in the US after completion of any training (and doing a bit of instructing) are remote. There seems to be too many students being produced by the US schools so employers don't want to bother with visa paperwork.

Canada was the next option but the ease of gaining residency is matched by the lack of available jobs. You seem to need to have 1000 to 2000+ hours to get anywhere. To do this you really need to instruct but there aren't any instructor jobs in Canada!

Next I looked at Australia and New Zealand but there just isn't any information available. No job adverts, and the training schools keep very low profiles !!!! However, New Zealand has distinct possibilities and it isn't too difficult to switch to Oz if more jobs come up there. The training isn't that cheap but then at least you can stay there! Not sure what the job prospects are like though !!!!

 

One conclusion I came to was that whatever license you gain, you really need to make sure it is going to get you a position to build hours (i.e. instructing). I now don't see the point in getting an FAA license as I'll never be a US citizen unless I apply using my existing skill set.

 

So now....like you.....I'm stuck with a dilema......I'm also 30.....bored with my job...very happy with the money.....love the private flying I do but it just isn't quite enough and it isn't rotary.

 

Looking at things now, I am almost back to square one! But I hope some of this helps you to re-evaluate things. I have totally ruled out the UK as a possible employment source as there are too many logical negative hurdles in the way. I know plenty of UK instructors (fixed wing and rotary) who would agree.

 

After about 9 months researching as many avenues as I can I'm still not sure......just like you. Part of me doesn't want to accept the answers!! I'm sure the heli pilot shortage is a myth but I'd love someone to prove otherwise!

 

AND THERE AREN'T ENOUGH COMMERCIAL HELI PILOTS ON THIS FORUM EITHER!!!!

[joker]

Stonemonkey,

 

Something niggles me about this..., but I don't know enough about the JAA system to know what. Maybe someone else can help out.

 

I would ask them about the JAA skills tests. I may be wrong, but I thought that there were only a limited number of schools that can do the helicopter skills tests (GFTs) outside of the UK. What about the ground exmainations? Can you do those there? It might bump up the cost considerably if you had to return to the UK just to do the exams and flight tests. This could be why they have to be 'affiliated' with a UK school. Check it out.

 

Also, I think this place is primarily a fixed wing school (and a good one too). Problem with that is the helicopter side of things might simply be 'stuck' on the side. The quality of the helicopter training might suffer as a result of being just an added extra.

 

Joker

 

Counter rant - Poulsej,

 

Interesting post. Do you know what you want out of aviation...or are you simply unhappy with IT?

 

A couple of comments:

 

Negativity towards your prospects? More likely to be a case of 'reality-checking' instead.

 

A lot of new / prospective helicopter pilots think all they need to do is pay the money, get the ticket and they'll be flying the big stuff in no time at all. Swanning around airports with their wheelie bags and gold bars and cap. Girls who fell for the ,"Let me show you my chopper," line hanging off your arms. It isn't like that.

 

The rotorworld is a tough hill climb. Many years of being 'just-another-low-hour-wanabe'; having 'no' experience. Paying out huge lumps of money constantly. Living a life that makes it hard to settle in one place or with one person. Flying weekends and public holidays, while your mates are all having fun, getting married, having children, etc...

 

That's why people might be negative. So many pilots have the glory-view of rotors, but not the reality-view. So many pilots have been stung...and dropped out after having spent everything they own.

 

However, on a positive note I would say go for it to anyone! If you don't try, you won't know, and that will bug you for the rest of your life.

 

Based on your age, you have 30 years of commercial flying left. That is more than enough to make a successful career in aviation. Even if it takes 10 years to get captain, that's still 20 years left.

 

If you think that you want to end your working life as a pilot, then make the decision...back your decision and follow it through with all heart and might. Accept that you will be back at the bottom of a ladder, but relish the climb.

 

And if it all goes pear-shaped, well is that really so bad? You tried at least. It took you 10 years to save the money. So, start again and 10 years later you'll have it back (probably more due to your age and experience).

 

Well, that's my counter rant. Good luck.

 

Joker

 

If I followed a bible, this poem would be it. Applicable to every 'life' occasion. Have faith in yourself.

 

IF by Kipling

 

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

 

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

 

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

 

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

[poulsej]

Joker, I agree with you 100% and I'm not actually saying don't make the jump. However, severe restrictions from immigration and various other country-specific complications - on top of global license differences - have made it much harder than ever before to find employment once the training is up. At least if you could remain in the US (where the abundance of employment seems to be) you'd have a better chance but employers don't want to waste time with someone who may not be allowed to remain in their country.

 

I realised the 'glamour/glory' side of aviation didn't exist from very early on but that has never been a reason for me to fly. I nearly resigned last year to become a full time microlight instructor but a 75% pay cut and living in the UK just seemed too daunting. Every avenue you look at pushes you back towards fixed wing airline work as there is a shortage without question, but flying commercial fixed wing just has no appeal to me.

 

If you want the best possible chance, Heli-Flight in New Zealand seems be a good idea. You could feasibly work in Oz, New Zealand, US (well maybe not the US!) or the UK for about £42K.....but who am I to advise !!!!!

 

If only there was someone with the answers !

[stonemonkey]

Cheers for the advice guys much needed!

 

Ok so heres what I'm now thinking...I'm still waiting for more info from that company but I'm not as keen after reading some of the replies! As I said before I was looking at doing my PPL in South Africa so thinking now of doing that, then a wee bit later doing my cpl/cfi in another country( USA or NZ although I'm leaning more towards NZ now!). Once completed, work as an instructor to get my hours up and either stay there visa permitting, or move to Canada and look for a job. Sounds so easy doesn't it!

I'll be able to do this as I currently have no life, I'm single and have no fixed abode courtesey of the Army (by all accounts from other forums, I should fit right in as a pilot!!)

 

One thing is for sure.. I'm definately going to do my course... its just a case of where!!

 

Joker... cheers for the poem.. Its one of my favs but haven't heard it for a while.. still sent a shiver down my spine reading it.!

[poulsej]

Stonemonkey,

 

Just one more thing!!!!......

 

I'm not sure where you live but have you actually visited some UK heli schools for advice. If it is not too far I recommend Heliair (www.heliair.com). Most of these guys can spare a bit of time explaining what the situation is at least in the UK. Some have global experience and can give some sound reasoning. See if you can book a fixed appointment to see them rather than just turning up. That may help you decide which type of license you want.

 

Once you've done that give HAI a call. Write down every question you can think of even if you've already heard the answers and ask them!

 

Something I discovered today is that a J1 visa will only give you a 2 year stay now. So you only have about 12-15 months to build up instructor hours (if you want to!). If you only go for the FAA license (which is no bad thing) you can look for work in Canada or the Middle East.

 

Don't just email them as you won't get all the answers you want. I have 2 more schools to talk to and then I'm going to make a decision. What I'm trying to avoid is having to spend more money after completing my training to build hours up to the magic 1000 mark. How I do this I'm still not entirely sure about.

 

Good luck

[i4iq]

I believe the conversion of an FAA to Oz standards is fairly straightforward. Somebody out there know from experience?