What to do??

April 20, 2006

Hello to all,

I find myself facing an interesting dilema after reading what rotoflightmaniac1 had said: "Even if you had to work for 3 years to save the cash, heck, you'd be 21 with flight instruction all paid for... Thats a situation that most of us here would die for," and so the question has been presented to me, whether to start flight training after high school or wait. I am 18 and a senior in High School. I have 35 more school days left until I graduate and then I can start flight school. Currently I have about $1,800 saved up which will pay for the ground schooling for my PPL, yea!! . I also have parents that will support me if need be, but I am figuring that they have other places for the money to go to so the contributions will be small (but I will be getting free room and board since I will more than likely be living at home). I will also be taking online aviation courses through UVSC at the same time as flight school which is $17,000 for a two year degree. So I am looking at roughly $67,000, all of which I can slap onto one loan through key bank. Okay that sounds good if I want to start flight school right away, but the downer is it'll take me 20+ years to pay off the freakin' loan!!!

My second plan is to wait, which right now doesn't sound good to me, I don't want to wait I want to fly helicopters now!!! What I could do is work for 1, 2 years and build up my savings. The only problem is waiting for those one or two years could really kill me when I would start to take online courses. Which brings me to another dilema!!! I am really considering getting A&P certification which would be a great back up plan, among other advantages, if anything were to happen to me and I couldn't fly anymore (it's also a bit cheaper than online courses estimated at $10,000 for the two year degree). Well, the reason I would be getting the aviation degree would be because of the back up a degree offers.

So now that I've stated what the plans are, what shall I do? Start flight school right away so that way I still know my material for the online degree or wait for a year or two to build up my savings to pay for training and get A&P certification instead of getting an aviation degree. Thanks to all of you who post, your advice is invaluable.

rookie

fry · April 20, 2006

Hello to all,

I find myself facing an interesting dilema after reading what rotoflightmaniac1 had said: "Even if you had to work for 3 years to save the cash, heck, you'd be 21 with flight instruction all paid for... Thats a situation that most of us here would die for," and so the question has been presented to me, whether to start flight training after high school or wait. I am 18 and a senior in High School. I have 35 more school days left until I graduate and then I can start flight school. Currently I have about $1,800 saved up which will pay for the ground schooling for my PPL, yea!! . I also have parents that will support me if need be, but I am figuring that they have other places for the money to go to so the contributions will be small (but I will be getting free room and board since I will more than likely be living at home). I will also be taking online aviation courses through UVSC at the same time as flight school which is $17,000 for a two year degree. So I am looking at roughly $67,000, all of which I can slap onto one loan through key bank. Okay that sounds good if I want to start flight school right away, but the downer is it'll take me 20+ years to pay off the freakin' loan!!!

My second plan is to wait, which right now doesn't sound good to me, I don't want to wait I want to fly helicopters now!!! What I could do is work for 1, 2 years and build up my savings. The only problem is waiting for those one or two years could really kill me when I would start to take online courses. Which brings me to another dilema!!! I am really considering getting A&P certification which would be a great back up plan, among other advantages, if anything were to happen to me and I couldn't fly anymore (it's also a bit cheaper than online courses estimated at $10,000 for the two year degree). Well, the reason I would be getting the aviation degree would be because of the back up a degree offers.

So now that I've stated what the plans are, what shall I do? Start flight school right away so that way I still know my material for the online degree or wait for a year or two to build up my savings to pay for training and get A&P certification instead of getting an aviation degree. Thanks to all of you who post, your advice is invaluable.

rookie

What to do next? Not an uncommon "dilemma" for someone facing high school graduation. But the reality is that an on-line aviation degree from UVSC would be difficult to actually complete. And, if you do finish, it is generally worthless as a "back up" plan.

How are you doing in school now? All "A"s and doing at least two hours of homework every night? If so, you're on track to go to a full-time resident college. But, if you don't currently have that kind of regimen you're not likely to start when you're out of the structured environment of school and studying alone at home on-line.

Exactly what does an "aviation degree" do for you? It is the generally same course of study as you would get in private pilot's license training...basic aeronautics, navigation, weather, etc. Plus the academic subjects required for any degree (imagine sitting alone at home studying algebra on-line). The degree would not provide any additional expertise that any other line pilot doesn't also have...so where's the "back up" benefit? Will an employer hire you or pay you more just having the degree on your resume? Nah, employers know the difference between a real college education and a correspondence course.

Here's the solution to your dilemma. Go the the local community college and talk to an admissions rep and get the paperwork to apply for financial aid. Do two years at community college and then transfer to a university. Take the most rigorous course of study you can...engineering, math, physical science...and devote yourself to getting "A"s. When you graduate you can do anything you want to do.

The alternative? Put yourself in debt by believing sales pitches that tell you to "live your dream" and that you are an exceptional person who can short-cut the process and jump in line ahead of others with more experience and training.

This is just the first in a long line of life's choices. Don't get in the habit of taking the easy ones. Good luck.

67november · April 20, 2006

hey rookie, since you're living at home and your parents are willing to help support your pilot training. talk to them about a home equity loan or line of credit, this way you'd have the funds for traing and they get another tax write off.

my 2 cents

Voluptuary5 · April 20, 2006

Hey Rookie,

Good to see you’re thinking this thing through thoroughly. I can definitely relate to your situation and am sympathetic to your desire to jump right in and get started on flight school – I wish I could do the same. But maybe you are looking at your situation to “black-and-white”. Maybe some sort of compromise would work best. For example, what about taking college courses and doing flight school at the same time? Or taking classes and working to save up the money for flight school? It is my own experience that one of the hardest personal attributes to learn in life is patience. Flight school is obviously your goal but maybe if you looked at getting a college degree as a means to achieve your goal, that would also be a good way to look at it. Granted, college isn’t as fun on the surface as flying but again, maybe if you thought of it as a “means to an end” rather than an “either or” would help. I’ve talked to a number of flight directors and while they all admit that one doesn’t need a degree to fly, per se, they also think the future of helicopter pilots will eventually go the way of commercial airlines; ie, eventually a degree will be required. I’ve also looked at a number of helicopter job listings and while hours does seem to be the most important thing, a number of jobs I saw said “degree preferred” (which translates to required), especially in the EMS field so it may already be starting. Also, in my experience, there is a lot more “learning” that goes on in college other than what you learn in class and that translates into my life everyday. For me personally, I did a lot of “growing up”, especially between the years of 18 to 22. I don’t think I would have been mature enough to have gone through flight school at 18.

One the other hand, college isn’t free. After going to college for more years than any one person should endure, my current school loan tab is $59,921.64. But in terms of college and flight school, I don’t think you can just compare the monies. The fact is, we will all at some point become medically disqualified. The problem is that we just don’t know when. Could be in a year; could be in 40 years so it is good you are thinking about a “fall-back”. As hard of a decision as it was for me, I’ve decided to continue on and finish up my degree. After all, what is one more year in the grand scheme of things? Worst case scenario for you if you went to college, you’ll be 22-23 when you would finish. Take my word for it, that is still really young and you’ll have plenty of time to do whatever you want after that. My brother finished his bachelor’s degree in 3 years. He worked very hard at it, took more than a full load every term and went to summer school. So you could be 21 and have your degree. I also agree with Fry that if you do decide to go the college route, start at a community college. I did 2 years at a CC and then transferred to a 4-year University (and almost every single credit transferred – they would also transfer to UVSC). The first 2 years of college are all your general education requirements for whatever degree you decide to get. There is no reason to take those courses at a large, expensive university. Frankly, my education from a CC was much better, and I learned a lot more, than at my University. The classes were smaller (10-50) and more hands-on and I couldn’t hide in the numbers. My classes at university were between 200-600. So basically I paid more for less. And also, try to think years in the future. Would you ever regret getting a college degree? Or would you more regret not getting a degree? That’s what keeps me going.

I’ll leave you with one last thing to think about before I end this long-winded post. One definition of maturity is delaying pleasure to fulfill a commitment, obligation, or responsibility.

-V5

fry · April 20, 2006

hey rookie, since you're living at home and your parents are willing to help support your pilot training. talk to them about a home equity loan or line of credit, this way you'd have the funds for traing and they get another tax write off.

my 2 cents

Two cents is more than that advice is worth (as if a "tax write off" is a good thing). He said he's living at home, aren't they doing enough? He shouldn't also expect his parents to be on the hook for another $100k of school costs and interest (and if you think they would not end up paying it you must not have adult children). There are plenty of financial aid programs available to fund a college education, there are none to fund a retirement. He should make the investment in himself and if that means he gets out of college with some student loan debt so be it. It will be the smartest money he ever spent.

April 20, 2006

What to do next? Not an uncommon "dilemma" for someone facing high school graduation. But the reality is that an on-line aviation degree from UVSC would be difficult to actually complete. And, if you do finish, it is generally worthless as a "back up" plan.

How are you doing in school now? All "A"s and doing at least two hours of homework every night? If so, you're on track to go to a full-time resident college. But, if you don't currently have that kind of regimen you're not likely to start when you're out of the structured environment of school and studying alone at home on-line.

Exactly what does an "aviation degree" do for you? It is the generally same course of study as you would get in private pilot's license training...basic aeronautics, navigation, weather, etc. Plus the academic subjects required for any degree (imagine sitting alone at home studying algebra on-line). The degree would not provide any additional expertise that any other line pilot doesn't also have...so where's the "back up" benefit? Will an employer hire you or pay you more just having the degree on your resume? Nah, employers know the difference between a real college education and a correspondence course.

Here's the solution to your dilemma. Go the the local community college and talk to an admissions rep and get the paperwork to apply for financial aid. Do two years at community college and then transfer to a university. Take the most rigorous course of study you can...engineering, math, physical science...and devote yourself to getting "A"s. When you graduate you can do anything you want to do.

The alternative? Put yourself in debt by believing sales pitches that tell you to "live your dream" and that you are an exceptional person who can short-cut the process and jump in line ahead of others with more experience and training.

This is just the first in a long line of life's choices. Don't get in the habit of taking the easy ones. Good luck.

Well, I currently pull A's and B's in my classes. I would pull all A's, but i am taking college classes (A/P English 12 and A/P U.S. History) and there difficult, especially when I have to account for all the sports I play, including late night practices and long away games. I've also been on the honor roll my entire high school career. I appreciate the advice you have given fry, but were does flight school fit into in this equation. I know what I want to do, I want to fly helicopters. If I go to a university or any college in general I would have to start paying off college and then start paying for flight school, that sounds like a financial nightmare.

Hey Rookie,

Good to see you’re thinking this thing through thoroughly. I can definitely relate to your situation and am sympathetic to your desire to jump right in and get started on flight school – I wish I could do the same. But maybe you are looking at your situation to “black-and-white”. Maybe some sort of compromise would work best. For example, what about taking college courses and doing flight school at the same time? Or taking classes and working to save up the money for flight school? It is my own experience that one of the hardest personal attributes to learn in life is patience. Flight school is obviously your goal but maybe if you looked at getting a college degree as a means to achieve your goal, that would also be a good way to look at it. Granted, college isn’t as fun on the surface as flying but again, maybe if you thought of it as a “means to an end” rather than an “either or” would help. I’ve talked to a number of flight directors and while they all admit that one doesn’t need a degree to fly, per se, they also think the future of helicopter pilots will eventually go the way of commercial airlines; ie, eventually a degree will be required. I’ve also looked at a number of helicopter job listings and while hours does seem to be the most important thing, a number of jobs I saw said “degree preferred” (which translates to required), especially in the EMS field so it may already be starting. Also, in my experience, there is a lot more “learning” that goes on in college other than what you learn in class and that translates into my life everyday. For me personally, I did a lot of “growing up”, especially between the years of 18 to 22. I don’t think I would have been mature enough to have gone through flight school at 18.

One the other hand, college isn’t free. After going to college for more years than any one person should endure, my current school loan tab is $59,921.64. But in terms of college and flight school, I don’t think you can just compare the monies. The fact is, we will all at some point become medically disqualified. The problem is that we just don’t know when. Could be in a year; could be in 40 years so it is good you are thinking about a “fall-back”. As hard of a decision as it was for me, I’ve decided to continue on and finish up my degree. After all, what is one more year in the grand scheme of things? Worst case scenario for you if you went to college, you’ll be 22-23 when you would finish. Take my word for it, that is still really young and you’ll have plenty of time to do whatever you want after that. My brother finished his bachelor’s degree in 3 years. He worked very hard at it, took more than a full load every term and went to summer school. So you could be 21 and have your degree. I also agree with Fry that if you do decide to go the college route, start at a community college. I did 2 years at a CC and then transferred to a 4-year University (and almost every single credit transferred – they would also transfer to UVSC). The first 2 years of college are all your general education requirements for whatever degree you decide to get. There is no reason to take those courses at a large, expensive university. Frankly, my education from a CC was much better, and I learned a lot more, than at my University. The classes were smaller (10-50) and more hands-on and I couldn’t hide in the numbers. My classes at university were between 200-600. So basically I paid more for less. And also, try to think years in the future. Would you ever regret getting a college degree? Or would you more regret not getting a degree? That’s what keeps me going.

I’ll leave you with one last thing to think about before I end this long-winded post. One definition of maturity is delaying pleasure to fulfill a commitment, obligation, or responsibility.

-V5

Thank you for the advice as well V5. Now, I could go to work and go to school at the same time, then I could take out a smaller loan for CC rather than a larger one for flight school and this has been what I am starting to lean towards. Now I must decide between whether or not to go for an aviation degree which could be from two to four years or get A&P certification which would take two years. Frankly the A&P certification sounds better to me, but then what about a managing position? If any EMS pilots would like to further explain if a degree is required for employment in that part of the industry, I would greatly appreciate that. My current hopes are to go into the fire fighting and heavy lift industry and both jobs can be out in the middle of nowhere, and being A&P certified could probably give me the edge if I and another pilot have similar credentials.

67nevember, as good as an idea as that sounds, I will already be getting free room and board and I don't think my parents want to spend anymore money on a house they already owe so much on. Anymore help would be greatly appreciated and thanks to those guys who have already posted, keep it coming

rookie

Voluptuary5 · April 20, 2006

Hey Rookie,

A couple more points. You may not realize it yet, but are actually way ahead of the game and in a much better position than the vast majority of your graduating classmates. You already know what you want to do in life. Most people (including myself) don’t know what they want to do for a career after graduating high school. You’re not going to be going from “job-to-job” or “major-to-major” finding the right career path for you. What ever you decide to do, you are going to go straight through because you have a goal. Having that goal of yours puts you at a huge advantage.

As far as the financial situation goes, like I mentioned, college is not free. But don’t let my numbers scare you. You can definitely do college MUCH cheaper than I did – that $1800 you already have would pay for a lot of classes at CC – I would guess maybe even the majority of the 2 years. It is also possible to come out of college completely debt-free if you worked full-time. Alternatively, in regards to my situation, I have thought of a way to maybe juggle the financial burden of college and flight school. Granted, it won’t help the total debt load but will lend some flexibility. I would be looking at >$100k total debt. The compromise for me means I would have to put off buying a house for a number of years. But the scenario goes like this: If you were to go to college and have to take out government school loans, they are deferred the entire time you are enrolled in a degree-seeking program at an accredited college. So if you got a college degree, then started the UVSC program within 6 months of finishing (you also get a 6 month deferral after you finish school) you will then be eligible for more government student loans through UVSC. The loans from your previous degree will then go back on deferral (UVSC is accredited) while you are taking courses at UVSC. But there are pros and cons with this scenario. PROS: 1) you would have access to money for flight school; 2) interest rates tend to be lower through the government loan programs (currently 4.70% for me) 3) a number of the credits you earned in college would potentially transfer to UVSC; and 4) the payback period tends to be longer (lower payments) with government student loans (this is not necessary a good thing but could be good during the CFI period). CONS: 1) overall HUGE debt load – college plus flight school; 2) you already have a degree so how much will another from UVSC help; 3) it will add extra costs to your flight school because you will have to enrolled and pay for UVSC courses (but this may balance out with the lower interest rates as opposed to private lenders); and 4) there will be an added time commitment taking the online classes.

Bottom line, there is no easy answer. Either way, I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders, your thinking, and if you honestly weigh all of your options OBJECTIVELY and PATIENTLY and you still decide to go directly to flight school, then do it full-tilt and don’t look back. But also remember that college doesn’t keep you from going to flight school – the two are not mutually exclusive!!!

I think that’s 4 cents total now!

-V5

PS – To see an example of “degree preferred” see the job listing on this site titled “RW - PIC WET VIRGINIA” posted April 10th.

fry · April 21, 2006

...were does flight school fit into in this equation. I know what I want to do, I want to fly helicopters. If I go to a university or any college in general I would have to start paying off college and then start paying for flight school, that sounds like a financial nightmare.

Actually, flight school probably doesn't fit into the equation. At least not as far as being able to fly now and pay later. No bank is going to make an unsecured loan for $50,000 to someone with no visible way to repay it. We've all been there..."Trust me" just doesn't work with bankers. Your folks could co-sign but, personally, I wouldn't do it for my son...too much money and too much risk you won't get to a paying job.

Your only route...given the constraints you've outlined...would appear to be to get a job, start building a credit history and learn to fly on a pay-as-you-go basis. At ten bucks an hour and living at home you should be able to put about $15k to $18k a year toward your flying costs (that doesn't leave anything for a social life or a set of wheels though). At the current going rate of $50k to get from zero to CFI you should be there in three years. Two more years of teaching...you'll probably have to leave town to find a position...and you should be at 1,000 hours and able to apply for a non-teaching position. That's not so bad...you'll be on your way before you're twenty-five and debt free.

Or, another scenario, you could go to college...probably straight into a university with your grades...and graduate in four years with an engineering degree. You could probably finance it with loans, grants and work-study and graduate with some debt but nothing unmanageable. Maybe get your PPL and IFR while you're in school by siphoning off some of the financial aid money. After graduation you can get a position designing or building helicopters...at a heckovalot more money than you will make as a CFI. And at some point you can buy a helicopter or start your own company.

Anybody who tells you "money don't buy happiness" ain't got any. Good luck.

April 21, 2006

Your only route...given the constraints you've outlined...would appear to be to get a job, start building a credit history and learn to fly on a pay-as-you-go basis. At ten bucks an hour and living at home you should be able to put about $15k to $18k a year toward your flying costs (that doesn't leave anything for a social life or a set of wheels though). At the current going rate of $50k to get from zero to CFI you should be there in three years. Two more years of teaching...you'll probably have to leave town to find a position...and you should be at 1,000 hours and able to apply for a non-teaching position. That's not so bad...you'll be on your way before you're twenty-five and debt free.

Maybe get your PPL and IFR while you're in school by siphoning off some of the financial aid money.

Anybody who tells you "money don't buy happiness" ain't got any. Good luck.

Fry,

This quoted passage above is excellent advice and that is what I am thinking might happen. I already have a car so wheels is no problem and I am prepared to severly cut down on my social life as well as move to where ever the work is, this is something I will have to get use to as a helicopter pilot, besides I don't have a girlfriend, they seem to get in the way as it is. Now, the rest of what you had said is great advice as well, but something I am not going to do. I want to fly helicopters, I've wanted to fly since I was 8 yrs. old, if not younger. No sales pitch got me that desire and no CFI told me to "live your dream, fly helicopters," I made the choice of becoming a pilot when I didn't even know how an aircraft got in the air, hell I thought clouds were created by the exhaust from a 737's jet engines . So, thank you for your advice and to all those who have posted or may post, it is priceless and is what is making young wanna-be's like me a smarter person, at least when it comes to helicopters and how this industry operates.