How long to hover?

[Ruby Soho]

LOL, yes Trinidad Goldy... sweet place to live! And very interesting av. community here!

[Witch]

I got to finally hover and keep within the county.

 

Seriously, I got the machine to basically stay in one place for a minute or so. Anticipating the direction the machine wants to go is very draining to the brain and muscles-or I could just be old. The next thing to work on is those dang pedals and that friggin collective. Maybe next week?

 

Nick did do a spinning top routine. He spun the copter around the axis, and after a few rotations, I had to yell "Stop it, I'm gettin' dizzy."

 

Have fun.

 

Later.

[Brianmech72]

For the several minutes I got to do it yesterday I can now understand what you are all talking about. This is definitely going to take a lot of practice. The pedals got me as they are backwards to me. I have run some heavy equipment and a skid steer loader comes to mind. The helicopter is directly opposite to this in rotation direction. But in flight it seemed more natural. Hovering threw me.

[Desertflyer]

Hey all. Posting from outback Australia here. Glad I found the forum.

With regards to hovering, I could hold my own at around 3 - 4 hrs cause I was lucky enough to be able to learn in nil wind most of the time but put me in anything above 15 knts and I was struggling. Relaxing is the key! It also depends how you are feeling on the day too. Some days it just clicks other days you feel like you should have stayed at home and re-arranged the sock draw. I find that with a lot of aspects of flying. You can ace it one day and then balls it up the next time you fly. Then ace it again.

I am at about 18 hrs now and I have very little trouble hovering except on an overly windy day when it is a bit of a fight to stay at a constant point over the ground. The poor old Robby gets blown about a bit.

I guess you never stop learning.

 

Anyway, really interesting to read fellow students questions and comments especially from the other side of the world.

[Witch]

I agree, relax.

 

I've also found that if I don't think about what I'm doing, I fly better. Autopilot I guess.

 

When coming in for a landing, it looks like I'm too low. I'd tense up and flair and start spinning all over the place. It's one of those moments where the pucker factor goes above critical.

 

Now however, I'm more relaxed after a few landings and as a result, the landings are significantly better. Actually, I don't think about what I'm doing, I just do it. Just like riding a bike, but harder to put cards in the spokes.

 

But like Desert Flyer says, relaxing is the key.

 

Later.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

I did a solo at 20.6 or something like that. I think I was hovering fairly well around 8 or 10. To me it seemed like the most difficult thing ever and from one lesson to the next it clicked. I left one lesson thinking that it was a good thing there weren't buildings closer to the helipad or I would have been slicing nice little cooling louvers in the side. The next time my instructor handed over the controls and I asked him if he was flying and he cautiously held his hands up. I couldn't believe he was doing that and I must actually be in control, but it seemed so smooth how could it be? We used to do short lessons or hover a while and then go work on other things then come back to hovering, those breaks really help. It really is amazing how mentally taxing it was to try to hover for an hour on end the couple of times we did try it, especially since it was 95 to maybe 102 when i was learning. I remember thinking this would be what it would be like if I was in a convection oven.

[flingwing206]

I still can't hover.

[Brianmech72]

I'm at just under 9 hours (3 of which in a Flyit simulator) and I can hover in about a 500 foot radius. That's my problem now with takeoffs and landings. So long as I stay out of a hover at takeoff I do okay. Landing still needs a lot of work.

[Goldy]

I'm at just under 9 hours (3 of which in a Flyit simulator) and I can hover in about a 500 foot radius. That's my problem now with takeoffs and landings. So long as I stay out of a hover at takeoff I do okay. Landing still needs a lot of work.

 

 

Brian- try this next time you are up.. Rather than trying to hold one spot, purposely move the helicopter SLIGHTLY forward, then purposely SLIGHTLY aft. In otherwords, you are "flying" the helicopter instead of trying to let it just sit there. I'll bet you can fly it 2 feet forwards and then 2 feet back in a tighter circle than you can currently hover. At some point you will realize that when hovering you are NOT trying to "hold" the helicopter in one spot, you are actually flying the helicopter over the same spot, reacting to changes and making small corrections at all times...you never stop correcting. So the real key is pressure. Just think about moving the cyclic in a particular direction and then think about moving it back to neutral....thats how small a movement you normally have to make. In a wind condition you may have to get aggressive in a smaller bird but next time you are out, try it. Also really be careful when correcting aft, you dont want a tail rotor strike, so be sure to have gentle control and at least 4-5 feet of air under you before backing up !

[Brianmech72]

Brian- try this next time you are up.. Rather than trying to hold one spot, purposely move the helicopter SLIGHTLY forward, then purposely SLIGHTLY aft. In otherwords, you are "flying" the helicopter instead of trying to let it just sit there. I'll bet you can fly it 2 feet forwards and then 2 feet back in a tighter circle than you can currently hover. At some point you will realize that when hovering you are NOT trying to "hold" the helicopter in one spot, you are actually flying the helicopter over the same spot, reacting to changes and making small corrections at all times...you never stop correcting. So the real key is pressure. Just think about moving the cyclic in a particular direction and then think about moving it back to neutral....thats how small a movement you normally have to make. In a wind condition you may have to get aggressive in a smaller bird but next time you are out, try it. Also really be careful when correcting aft, you dont want a tail rotor strike, so be sure to have gentle control and at least 4-5 feet of air under you before backing up !

 

Interesting thought, Goldy. I'm going to try that next time. I have been trying to react to what its doing. Making it do it is a whole different concept. Thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Witch]

Well here's something that I notice about my IP. They both seem to move the stick and pedals quite a lot. I mean that on the pedals they constantly move them back and forth, and moving the stick like it was loose. When I get it, I move quite a bit less. I'm still lagging in the pedal department, but the stick doesn't move as much as when Nick has it. And Mike looks like he's mixing cake batter.

 

I don't get it.

 

Hovering is gettin' better though.

 

Later

[Goldy]

Interesting thought, Goldy. I'm going to try that next time. I have been trying to react to what its doing. Making it do it is a whole different concept. Thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

 

Brian, no one would understand it, but the suttle difference between controlling the aircraft when its moving and sitting still is what you feel as a student,. It just seems more comfortable when its moving! In another 5 hours you won't need to remember any of this, you will just sit there and so will the bird! Trust me!

[Brianmech72]

Brian, no one would understand it, but the suttle difference between controlling the aircraft when its moving and sitting still is what you feel as a student,. It just seems more comfortable when its moving! In another 5 hours you won't need to remember any of this, you will just sit there and so will the bird! Trust me!

 

Aside from the horizontal component right now to learn I am having trouble with the vertical. In the perfect hover I have seen it gently rises and falls. For me, when it falls I want to pull collective and when it rises I want to drop collective. And then I tend to overcorrect and shoot up and come down too fast and it amplifies from there. I am trying hard to get the "gently and smoothly" part down. My next lesson is Thursday, hope it doesn't storm.

[Witch]

I was just reading what Ruby said;

 

) if you're holding the collective and you stick your thumb out and onto the seat or towards the seat and make all your collective inputs by pivoting around your thumb, you will soon realise that it is impossible to over control like this! It really gave me a feel for just how small your movements really can be to make this thing fly;

 

Crap,I've been doing that since I started. I also cup the collective in my fingers just behind the throttle. The governor is twsting the throttle back and forth and I try to not bother it. But I do stick my thumb on the top of the seat and use that as a pivot point to raise the collective.

 

Another thing you might want to try to keep from being a yo-yo is to not think about what you're doing. I was singing "Trigger Happy' by Wierd "Al" Yankovic. Other songs include Irgendwie, Irgendwo, Irgendwann,(German) , Kids in America, Joyride, Gimme gimme gimme, and anything from DEVO. It really helps. One last tactic; BS with your IP. Don't talk about flying, but rather about that episode of Airwolf where a KC-135 refuels Airwolf in the air and th ecrew is debating what aircraft they're giong to refuel. Next thing you know, you're relaxed and hovering steady as a hummingbird, but louder.

 

Later.

[Gomer Pylot]

Brian, it depends on the helicopter. Turbines have the throttles in various places - on the collective, on the floor, on the ceiling, or wherever. They're normally flown full open, and you don't have to futz with it. The governor and fuel control, along with control coupling, take care of keeping the rpm at the proper place all the time. The S76, for instance is flown with the rotor rpm at 107%. Go figger. Piston engines have to be controlled manually for the most part, and the throttle is generally on the collective, which is a lever on the left side of the seat, operated by the left hand, and you have to roll the throttle up and down as you change the collective position.

[Goldy]

Aside from the horizontal component right now to learn I am having trouble with the vertical. In the perfect hover I have seen it gently rises and falls. For me, when it falls I want to pull collective and when it rises I want to drop collective. And then I tend to overcorrect and shoot up and come down too fast and it amplifies from there. I am trying hard to get the "gently and smoothly" part down. My next lesson is Thursday, hope it doesn't storm.

 

 

OK, so dont hover and turn...work on just hovering and then you can mix the both of them. Also, its ok at first to gain or lose 2 feet of altitude when turning ( assuming you have a couple feet under you!). Your CFI would kill me, he/she wants to see that perfect 360, hovering over one spot, and keeping altitude the same. It will happen, but first things first, learn to hover..then add the turns without collective control, then add them all together for the perfect 360.

 

If you start descending during a hovering turn you also dont have to adjust collective/ you can also just stop turning, and with the power setting the same, what will happen? It will stop descending and you'll be back where you started.( in ground effect..not at 20 feet in the air !). Ok enough bad advice.....CFI's dont want you to learn piece by piece because some of it you have to change. They would rather teach the right technique over and over until you get it....and thats not a bad thing, but it adds to the frustration of the student when he/she cant perform the manuever. In this case, I would suggest you take it one piece at a time, starting with the straight into the wind hover........just go fly !

[Witch]

Oh, how timely.

 

I just got the latest issue of Heliops Magazine-Thanks Heliops- that has an article by Nick Lappos called The Hover Button. He explaines that the hover isn't easy but can be done. I can't give a synopsis, but it was entertaining.

 

If you get a chance to read it, do.

 

Later.

[Brianmech72]

Oh, how timely.

 

I just got the latest issue of Heliops Magazine-Thanks Heliops- that has an article by Nick Lappos called The Hover Button. He explaines that the hover isn't easy but can be done. I can't give a synopsis, but it was entertaining.

 

If you get a chance to read it, do.

 

Later.

 

I read that article too and it was helpful. Still can't hover though. I have my lesson this afternoon. Practice, practice, practice.

[Gomer Pylot]

The secret to hovering is seeing what the helicopter is going to do before it does it, and making the correction before the movement. It's hard to explain, but it does come with practice. You have to see trends developing before they get very far, and learn to make the appropriate correction, with the appropriate amount of movement. It does take experience to know how much to move the collective and pedals, and there are no shortcuts that I know of. You just have to learn to see what it's going to do and make it do what you want it to.

[Brianmech72]

The secret to hovering is seeing what the helicopter is going to do before it does it, and making the correction before the movement. It's hard to explain, but it does come with practice. You have to see trends developing before they get very far, and learn to make the appropriate correction, with the appropriate amount of movement. It does take experience to know how much to move the collective and pedals, and there are no shortcuts that I know of. You just have to learn to see what it's going to do and make it do what you want it to.

 

Had my lesson today and I just get better every time I do it. That's the only sure way to get it. Keep doing it. I have finally gotten myself to unconciously keep my attention on a distant target rather than watching the ground, which has helped immensly. Today I was very happy with my collective and pedal work. I was even getting comfortable with getting off the ground and into a hover (with instructor backup on the cyclic). My "hover radius" with the cyclic is getting smaller. My approaches are getting better except for the final pulling of power to a hover. Again, I need more practice. I'll hit the sim again on Monday for some practice.

[Witch]

Distant target? Dang, I'm looking all over the dang place. I suppose that after a while one gets the feel that they hover on autopilot. I noticed that with Mike, that he has it in a hover and starts looking around, talking, and such that he doesn't look at a fixed object. I can kinda get that way a little, but I then start looking at the ground.

 

You ought to see his hand and feet too. It's like he's dancing the rhumba on the pedals, and the stick seems to go around in a small circle. Entertaining to watch to say the least. I wonder if he flys the crane that way too?

 

Later.

[Brianmech72]

Distant target? Dang, I'm looking all over the dang place. I suppose that after a while one gets the feel that they hover on autopilot. I noticed that with Mike, that he has it in a hover and starts looking around, talking, and such that he doesn't look at a fixed object. I can kinda get that way a little, but I then start looking at the ground.

 

You ought to see his hand and feet too. It's like he's dancing the rhumba on the pedals, and the stick seems to go around in a small circle. Entertaining to watch to say the least. I wonder if he flys the crane that way too?

 

Later.

 

Yeah, its interesting how much of a difference it makes. I'll be fighting to find the ground and not doing too well until I notice or he tells me to "watch that barn way over there" or something. Almost instantly I can feel the difference.

[Guest pokey]

You ought to see his hand and feet too. It's like he's dancing the rhumba on the pedals, and the stick seems to go around in a small circle. Entertaining to watch to say the least. I wonder if he flys the crane that way too?

 

Later.

 

Friend of mine a few years back was a S-61 pilot for donald trumps airline. One day we went flying in my 300 & i noticed that he "jabbed" @ the cyclic & "abused" the pedals,,,,, flight was stable & smooth tho, but? there is no need for all that movement & it just wears out parts faster. Guy i fly w/ regularly in his 300 is a "jabber" too ( altho he is relatively low time helicopter pilot) I keep telling ( yelling) @ him that there is no need for all that & take the controls & show him, but? i guess he will always be a "jabber"

[Brianmech72]

Friend of mine a few years back was a S-61 pilot for donald trumps airline. One day we went flying in my 300 & i noticed that he "jabbed" @ the cyclic & "abused" the pedals,,,,, flight was stable & smooth tho, but? there is no need for all that movement & it just wears out parts faster. Guy i fly w/ regularly in his 300 is a "jabber" too ( altho he is relatively low time helicopter pilot) I keep telling ( yelling) @ him that there is no need for all that & take the controls & show him, but? i guess he will always be a "jabber"

 

I notice that too. I am making wild cyclic changes trying to keep it in place. When I watch my instructor it looks like he isn't even moving it. Its experience, plain and simple. He already knows where the helicopter is going to go and can feel it way before I do.

[Witch]

I notice that too. I am making wild cyclic changes trying to keep it in place. When I watch my instructor it looks like he isn't even moving it. Its experience, plain and simple. He already knows where the helicopter is going to go and can feel it way before I do.

I was hovering yesterday and it was for crap. I was hardly moving the stick but fighting the machine to keep from doing a pendulum swing. We kept swinging back and forth. I started singing 'Rock-a-bye Baby 'cause that's what it felt like. Another five minutes of that and I'd have fallen asleep.

 

I took a vid of Nick flying sideways (a demo), and sure enough, the cyclic is everywhere but center. At least he doesn't dance on the pedals too bad. My pedal action is almost non-existant.

 

Later.