Autos Suck !

[Witch]

Did my auto today. I was apprehensive of the manuver because of the steep glide ratio. Well, we got up to 1000' and lined up with the runway. He chopped the power, and my stomach went up into my throat. I don't tolerate less than 1 G well.

 

Sorry about the pause, the chicken was chasing the cat again. She's aggressive to the cats.

 

Anyway, we start the fall and my stomach goes up and I get that feeling I don't tolerate well. He goes through the airspeed, rotor speed , and altitude. We start the flare at about 40 feet, which seems like 5 feet to me, and he slows us down and pulls the power back and we get into a hover. At this point I'm about to unbuckle and jump out.

 

Did I mention I don't like rollercoasters either?

 

So I settle down, and we take off to do it again.

 

This time it wasn't too bad, but I still react to the initial drop of the machine. Ok, so it wasn't as bad this time. So we take off and do it again.

 

So we turn base and he gives me the bird. My first thought is "WHERE'S MY PARACHUTE!!!! I'M OUTTA HERE!!!"

 

Ok, down collective, dump the throttle, and hail Mary, hold the beef. Don't ask. I keep the rotor up to speed and some forward cyclic. He tells me to flare, we flare. He adds power, and we crash-well, not really, it just seems like it. So we go around and do it again.

 

This time we're at 1200' and things go a little more smooth. On the way down, I noticed it was rather quiet. I asked Nick if we were in whisper mode. He laughs. I guess that's a good sign.

 

So I guess autos aren't that bad. I just prefer to not do them.

 

 

We also left skid marks down the runway. "Do you smell burning metal?"

 

Later.

[PA Pilot]

Funny you should mention that. I did some enhanced auto training today as part of my R22 to R44 transition. The CFI was the same guy who did my PP-RH checkride.

 

He presented a whole different way of looking at autos and maybe that might help you. He divided practice autos into five distinct phases (the examples are for an R44 but an R22 isn't much different -- the airspeeds are just lower):

 

1. Setup. Carb heat full, level flight at 80-85 KIAS.

 

2. Entry. Lower collective to the floor and right pedal at the same time, then aft cyclic to keep nose from dropping, then split the needles, and raise the collective a tad to prevent overspeed (may not be needed if you're light).

 

3. Glide. RPM 99-102%, 60-70 KIAS. If you do the entry right, and nail these numbers, you can just ride that sucker down and you really don't have to do anything to maintain the glide.

 

4. Flare at roughly 40 feet to kill airspeed, stop descent, and to bring RPM up. Midway through flare, rejoin the needles.

 

5. Forward cyclic to keep tail rotor from striking, collective up to make power recovery.

 

Note that this for practice autos only.

[Witch]

That's what I was doing. I wasn't chasing the needles and the airspeed was about 70 both times. The thing that gets me is the initial drop and the figuring out when to flare. Mind you I have a tendancy to come in a little high on landing-did the same in airplanes. It seems like I'm closer to the ground than I actually am. I don't judge distances well. When we get close to the ground, I tense up and get a little panic in me. I think it has something to do with my heightened sense of self-preservation.

 

One thing I did like was the quiet. I like whisper mode.

 

Also, the rotor makes a funny sound during the flare. It sounds kinda like a gyroscope winding up.

 

Later.

[aviator]

Witch, the first time an instructor did an auto with me it scared the living daylights out of me. I wanted to quit flying that day because I did not want to have my stomach in my throat ever again. I must admit, I think he was a bit of a showoff. But now seven years later, auto's are a non event. You can enter it very gently without your stomach rising up your throat. But thinking back to that first auto, I reckon that is going to be what it is like when that donkey quits! It is not going to ask you to enter a gentle autorotation!!!! So be prepared.

[Goldy]

Witch, the first time an instructor did an auto with me it scared the living daylights out of me. I wanted to quit flying that day because I did not want to have my stomach in my throat ever again. I must admit, I think he was a bit of a showoff. But now seven years later, auto's are a non event. You can enter it very gently without your stomach rising up your throat. But thinking back to that first auto, I reckon that is going to be what it is like when that donkey quits! It is not going to ask you to enter a gentle autorotation!!!! So be prepared.

 

 

I agree with all, with a twist- I prefer to practice autos by rolling off throttle FIRST, leaving collective at previous setting, which is simulating an engine failure, and then acting appropriately ( drop collective, r pedal, etc.) The yaw is quick and obvious and you have to react to it...just like the real thing. We used to always practice autos in the 22 ( 1986-7) with a throttle chop entry... ( it was then discovered that results in a little too real of an engine failure...so dont ! ) however, even a nice smooth roll off of the throttle will give you that sim engine failure "feel". As a student, I would want my first couple auto's to be an easy entry..and then work up to more realistic one's.

 

If you don't know the danger of throttle chops- check this out: http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/rchsn27.pdf

 

BTW- I also hate that initial freefall feeling, you just deal with it and move on! And my kids never understand why I dont go on roller coasters anymore !

[Pogue]

FWIW my instructor does "throttle chops" (actually roll offs) on me without warning now, and it's a lot different than when I decide to enter an auto while in the pattern. Personally, I want to be proficient at autos, and I don't mind paying to get the time. Sure, the technique is one thing, but the most important part of the process is realizing when you need to enter an auto to begin with. Witch, there may not be many real engine failures in R22's, but search "R22" and "fatal" on the NTSB accident database and see how many times "failure to retain rotor rpm" is in the reports. It may have been carb ice, inadvertantly pulling the mixture instead of the cyclic right trim, a sucked valve or whatever, but they stalled the rotor, and that pretty much ends the story.

[Goldy]

FWIW my instructor does "throttle chops" (actually roll offs) on me without warning now, and it's a lot different than when I decide to enter an auto while in the pattern. Personally, I want to be proficient at autos, and I don't mind paying to get the time. Sure, the technique is one thing, but the most important part of the process is realizing when you need to enter an auto to begin with. Witch, there may not be many real engine failures in R22's, but search "R22" and "fatal" on the NTSB accident database and see how many times "failure to retain rotor rpm" is in the reports. It may have been carb ice, inadvertantly pulling the mixture instead of the cyclic right trim, a sucked valve or whatever, but they stalled the rotor, and that pretty much ends the story.

 

 

Well said. for those that dont know the site is: www.ntsb.gov

Click on aviation, then on searchable database. My search revealed over 120 accidents involving at least one fatality in an R22 over the years.

[flyby_heli]

1. Setup. Carb heat full, level flight at 80-85 KIAS.

 

 

3. Glide. RPM 99-102%, 60-70 KIAS.

 

 

I recommend doing it a little different. Specially in an R-22. If your entry airspeed is higher than what you want to establish in a glide you will have to pull aft on the cyclic to slow down instead of just slightly aft to keep the nose from dropping. This will again make your RRPM come up more than necessary, and you will have to pull more collective. when you level off again your collective is too high, your RRPM is dropping and here we go chasing the needles and taking your focus to the inside of the cockpit instead of keeping a continous scan. Also doing it that way it takes very long time to get used to how much cyclic input to use to slow down those additional 10-15 knots from entry to glide.

 

Set up the level flight at the wanted glide speed (60-65kts). This way cyclic is used only to keep the ship in the same attitude, not slowing it down.

Also on a "self induced" auto, there is no point in doing a throttle chop entry. Lower collective nice and slow and start rolling throttle off just before collective is floored (the auto is described in the PTS as a "precision maneuver"). Remember - every action has an equal and opposite reaction.....the faster you slam the collective down, the faster you have to push right pedal, and aft cyclic....the easier it is to overcontrol it, and that's when all the needle chasing begins.

Once you get more comfortable with the autos you can start practicing more "realistic engine failures".

 

Safe autos

Flyby.

[joker]

A good auto (the performance manuever ones - straight ins and 180s) starts from a good entry. Get that right, and you'll nail the rest.

 

the first time an instructor did an auto with me it scared the living daylights out of me. I wanted to quit flying that day because I did not want to have my stomach in my throat ever again.

 

This is interesting. Here's a little poll.

 

The first auto you saw was:

 

1. A complete throttle chop, with termination on ground or hover.

2. A gentle but swift power off and collective lowering into autorotation state still to ground or hover.

3. At a higher altitude, a gentle and slow lowering collective until flat pitch. Staying like this for a good long time getting used to the descent rate. Then a gentle rolling off of the power and discussion about the fact that we still have control (as you slowly split the needles). Then a recovery and try again.

 

The first auto training you did was:

 

1. A complete throttle chop, with termination on ground or hover.

2. A gentle but swift power off and collective lowering into autorotation state, establish glide, then recover, climb and do it again.

3. The flare and recovery stages added onto (2) after the glide is sorted. Throttle chops only introduced once the straight in non-surprise type is good.

 

I'm sure you can see what I'm getting to.

 

When starting auto's with a new student, it isn't necessary, fair or wise to go straight in to the full throttle chop, bottom falls out of helo aircraft the first time. (However, I asked for the full treatment first time, and loved it. Better than a rollercoaster!) The point is that everyone is different, so check with them first what they want.

 

Ok split the demonstration issue from the training issue. When demonstrating (particularly when doing a non-training demonstration flight) here's a rule - Always ask the client what they want before doing your first auto.

 

"Do you want me to simulate a full engine failure? You may feel a little uncomfortable as we will drop like a stone, and the ground will rush up. Things go very quickly. Or I could show you how we can control our aircraft with no power by doing entering slowly. You won't even feel a thing as we roll the throttle off!"

 

If someone who is paying for a demo flight or a new student seems a little nervous, DON'T SCARE THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM! recover at 200 feet the first time. That's good enough!

 

From a training point of view, you must demonstrate the different parts of the skill seperately. Demonstrating one auto to a hover, then saying, "Now your turn," is pointless!

 

I'm sure what I say is actually quite obvious, but from reading some of these threads, I sometimes wonder.

 

Joker

[FUSE]

I was introduced to auto's on my very first demo flight. Went for a demo flight of 30 minutes to see if I'll like flying. On our way back to the airport he asked if I wanted to see what an auto was like. Well at this point I'm loving it so I say go for it. He does it from about 1000 feet if I remember correctly, but what a rush. I knew from that flight with all the things he showed me, that I will have to fly for the rest of my life.... I can't imagine not flying. I just hope I'm able to make a living out of it.

[Witch]

Well, autos still suck.

 

As for the entry, we did lower the collective first, then rolled the throttle. One thing I think I could do is to watch the altimeter also to figure out when to flare. I also want to start from a higher altitude, say 1200'. That gives me about 900' to play with. We were doing them at 750'agl, and I think I was trying to do things quickly and wasn't able to think of what to do. I know that things go quickly when flying 500'agl, so I'll have to think about that.

 

We'll see what happens in two weeks.

 

Later.

[flyby_heli]

One thing I think I could do is to watch the altimeter also to figure out when to flare.

 

This is not a really good idea. Doing this you will keep your eyes inside the cockpit too much. The flare of the auto takes a while to get used to (when to start the flare, how aggressive to flare, when to level off, etc.) But keeping your eyes outside is key at this point.

Besides, how will you know the elevation of the place you are over when your engine fails......

 

 

I also want to start from a higher altitude, say 1200'. That gives me about 900' to play with. We were doing them at 750'agl, and I think I was trying to do things quickly and wasn't able to think of what to do. I know that things go quickly when flying 500'agl, so I'll have to think about that.

 

 

Later.

 

 

This is what i do with my students. Usually i go up to at least 1200 AGL in the first 5-10 autos. This way they get more time to get used to the glide, play with the RRPM and get used to what the attitude for the right airspeed looks like outside.

 

 

Don't worry too much if you can't do the perfect auto early on in your training. Autos take time to get used to, and specially the flare. Most people have a tendency of flaring too high in the beginning.

 

Safe autos

Flyby

[Vaqueroaero]

Well, autos still suck.

 

One thing I think I could do is to watch the altimeter also to figure out when to flare.

 

That is one of the things that you most definetly should NOT do! One of the most important skills to develop as a student undergoing autorotation training is the ability to be able to do them without looking inside at the gauges. If you try and fly the gauges the chance of you ever doing a successful auto are pretty minimal.

 

As an instructor here's what I do. We start off entering at around sixty knots. Keep your eyes focused outside the aircraft and as the collective is lowered focus on maintaining a 60 knot nose attitude. Don't let it drop, don't let it rise. Keep it level. Once you've mastered that then autos become a whole lot easier. One other very important aspect is where your eyes are looking on the recovery. If you look too close to the aircraft, you will not achieve a level attitude. Look right down the runway to the very end and you will find that the aircraft levels itself as if by magic.

 

As for judging the height of the flare, that just comes with practice.

 

Autorotations need a lot of practice to become proficient in them. No two are ever the same and it is important that right now in your formative years as a pilot that they are taught to you correctly. One of the biggest problems I see is that people will terminate way too high. Terminate (assuming power recovery) at an altitude that you would feel comfortable doing a hover auto from.

 

Don't be afraid of practising a maneuver that may one day save your life. Practice it until it just becomes second nature. You won't regret it - after a while, believe it or not, they become a lot of fun.

[Witch]

I've been thinking about it and I guess I can do a couple more...But I bet they'll still suck.

 

An engine failure in a plane was a better experience for me because you didn't get that initial falling feeling. You basically started a stall, and nosed it forward into a glide. The plane has a better glide ratio anyhow. That gives you a lot of time to look for a spot to crash...er...land. The glide ratio on this thing is the same as an F-4-straight down.

 

One thing that prevents me from making a parachute jump, besides the canopy failure, is that initial drop. I'm told that once one reaches terminal velocity, you're back at 1G. That's no comfort. I even stopped going on roller coasters because of that drop. I can't stand it.

 

Like I said, I'll do it a couple more times. I bet they still suck.

 

Later.

[flyby_heli]

A couple more???

If you see yourself succeeding in this career, you'll more than likely end up doing hundreds more.

 

If you still get a feeling of falling, that means you are still lowering the collective quicker than you have to. If the engine stops, yes, get that collective down as fast as possible. For demonstration purposes (like a check ride) the auto can and should be a smooth experience for the examinor.

Next time, litterally count 1-mississippi-2-mississippi-3-mississippi (did i get all the s's and p's???) while lowering your collective, then roll off your throttle. This ensures a nice gentle entry with no loss of RRPM, and it also makes it easier to coordinate collective, cyclic and pedal inputs.

And if you think the glide sucks in a R-22.....try the Schweizer.

 

What you mention about the glide being longer in an airplane is true, but remember you need at least 400-500 feet of somewhat level ground to put it down. A helicopter on the other hand....if you have a spot the size of a tenniscourt, you are golden. Every aircraft have it's weak and strong points, it's just a matter of weighing those points against each other and decide based on that if you want to fly it or not.

 

Have fun doing autos.

Flyby

[RotorWeed]

And if you think the glide sucks in a R-22.....try the Schweizer.

 

And if you think the Schweizer sucks, try a Schweizer in Denver on a really hot day

 

I prefer to do autos in the R44 at sea level.

 

RW

[PA Pilot]

A couple more???

If you see yourself succeeding in this career, you'll more than likely end up doing hundreds more.

Yeah, but I don't think this kid understands that.

 

I would add, or change your comment to:

 

If you don't want to die, you'll more than likely end up doing hundreds more.

[Witch]

I quit.

[67november]

now, now, now, get back on that bike and start riden again

[RotorWeed]

I wouldn't quit just yet, wait till you have completed your 50th auto.

I love autos; can't get enough of them.

 

RW

[West Coaster]

Totally agree with RW, once you get it right you're golden. Also don't expect too much of yourself at this point in the game. Yuo won't be able to match your instructor's ability any time soon so don't get down on yourself if yours doesn't look as good as his.

 

But stick with it. The day will soon come when you do a full auto to the ground and realize the instructor didn't have to help on the controls that time at any point... it was all you baby! That's a damn good feeling.

 

On a side note:

If you're having major troubles with them then face it head on. Make every flight nothing but auto after auto until you're satisfied. One of my biggest hurdles in training were off-level landings. So one day we went out in the 206 and did them for an hour straight with the tail pointing straight into a 20kt wind. That was more than enough to cure me haha.

[RotorWeed]

I didn’t like performing hover autos in the R22 at all. When check ride time came I spent a couple hours doing them over and over. I started rolling the throttle off slowly, then faster each time until I had them down; even now I still hear “throttle, pedal, settle, pull” in my sleep.

Autorotation from altitude can’t be practiced that way. You will just need to learn to get the collective down smoothly but quickly, apply right pedal, roll the throttle off, and HOLD THAT 60kt ATTITUDE!

Give it time and you will be begging your instructor to do 180 autos. Keep at it, it does get easier.

 

Later when I went for my turbine checkout in the Hughes 500, I learned hover autos in a turbine are a nonevent! Well almost.

[Scarab]

When I was training I had the mental picture of the auto being a (panic) manuever. One day a looooong time cfi explained it as merely a transition of flight mode, ie from powered flight to autorotation. For some reason this made perfect sense to me and ended the white knuckle routine. It's simply another way to fly the helicopter.

[Bristol]

I quit.

 

Witch,

 

You may want to try practicing autos with different instructors. Not to say that your current instructor is lacking, but it may help you to get a different style of instruction. I'm right at 18 hours, been attempting autorotations 4 or 5 each training session, I am getting more comfortable each time.

 

Don't quit.

[Witch]

No you knuckleheads, I mean quit talking about it. I'm still gonna fly ferchrissakes. I ain't come dis far to stop flyin', I love it. I just think autos suck, they do suck, and they'll always suck. I've accepted that fact and I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.

 

Jeese!

 

Later.