fair or unfair

[dave5]

I have 2 questions what happened me the last 2 months.

 

Is it realistic to pay the school in the following situations:

 

1) you start up and during the MAg check you notice that the Rpm is not right. You lean out and try it again. After that the situation is the same and you shut the engine. Mostly on the hobbs meter is that 0.2 hr.

 

2) you start up and you follow your checklist. Rotors are spinning and on the radio you hear that the weather changed from VFR to IFR. You shut the engine and on the hobbs is 0.1 hr.

 

Question: is it right or realistic that the school charge you for the two situations above.

[flingwing206]

I have 2 questions what happened me the last 2 months.

 

Is it realistic to pay the school in the following situations:

 

1) you start up and during the MAg check you notice that the Rpm is not right. You lean out and try it again. After that the situation is the same and you shut the engine. Mostly on the hobbs meter is that 0.2 hr.

If it is a maintenance issue, it would seem that the school shouldn't charge. I'm assuming this is a Schweizer (Robinson has no authorized leaning procedure), if so, the only real cost to the school is the fuel, as the MX Hobbs doesn't run on the ground.

2) you start up and you follow your checklist. Rotors are spinning and on the radio you hear that the weather changed from VFR to IFR. You shut the engine and on the hobbs is 0.1 hr.

Pardon me for asking, but who allowed (or trained) a student pilot to make such a bad decision? If this was a rated pilot operating without oversight, then hey, they made the choice to fly and their bad judgement shut them down - that 0.1 hour charge is the price of experience.

 

So 1) no, 2) absolutely.

[Guest pokey]

So 1) no, 2) absolutely.

 

of korse !

 

altho there are many ways to wire a hobbs & alot do work on the ground.

 

0.1=6 minutes, just curious where you are flying that the weather goes bad that quick?

[joker]

Agree with Flingwing.

 

Just a little plug for the instructors here....

 

Students, remember that in both those cases, the instructor (if it were dual training) gets nothing! Buy him / her a beer sometime!

 

Actually, when dual training wth a student pilot I would make the call on the weather. If it was a rated pilot then it would be their call.

 

Joker

[dave5]

of korse !

 

altho there are many ways to wire a hobbs & alot do work on the ground.

 

0.1=6 minutes, just curious where you are flying that the weather goes bad that quick?

 

 

Hi Pokey,

 

Before the flight I listened to the Atis by a transever inside the school and looked at computer for weather-brief. The situation was VFR

 

Went in helicopter with my instructor and during startup, when i listened to the ATis, the weather changed from VFR to IFR , I did not pickup the helicopter and only the rotors were spinning.

 

The situation with the magneto check happened me twice, once dual and on time solo. Here again, the rotors were only spinning and i did not lift up.

 

The school said: you are practice startup and shutdown in both situations. Thats why you have to pay.

[C of G]

My $.02:

 

Bad mag: It would depend on how the mx is tracked, ie, if there is a separate mx hobbs, I can't see why the school would charge you as the only charge, as Fling stated, would be minimal fuel. After all, I'm sure they're not too concerned with their own starts for leak checks and the like. If they don't have a separate hobbs, then it is a bit grey as they charged you to fly an airworthy helicopter and that's not what they provided. In either case, it would be good form for them to let it slide as they are earning a living off of your attendance at the school.

 

WX: I would put it on your shoulders, as Joker said, as it is part of your job as a commercial pilot to make sound decisions. I would be surprised if there wasn't some clue before you started that the weather was deteriorating. What was the "VFR" weather report? Was it marginal? And what did it look like outside. Did a freak storm pass through or was it cloudy/hazy to begin with and just get pushed over to the legal IFR limit? Lastly what was it you were trying to do on the flight and couldn't you accomplish it SVFR? In the big picture, making a bad decision could cost you a lot more than .2 on a hobbs. Maybe you got off cheap.

[Gomer Pylot]

I've seen the weather go from clear blue and 22 to solid fog in much less than 5 minutes in the GOM. I've also seen it go down very quickly on land. It's a judgement call on the charges, I think. The school can legally charge, probably, and you can legally find another school if you aren't happy with its policies. A school that eager to charge students is probably on the edge of profitability, and may not be concerned about the long term. If so, then the quality of its instruction may be in question. Do what you think you have to do.

[Helibear]

If a student decides not to fly, because he feels bad about something, the school should not charge him.

Even if it were legal to fly, lets say weather is still VFR but the wind peaks up and the student feels uncomfortable to pick up with 15 kts crosswind.

 

The point is, the school should honor the good decision not to fly even if it is made late.

And to decide not to fly after runup is hard enough.

Don´t force bad decision making !

 

R.

[benny]

At the biggest school in Florida, it happened to me the same.

 

They say you are practicing startup and shut down, also when you have more than a honderd hrs.

 

It is what it is and you have to except it. Afterwards you have a bad taste in you mouth.

 

Take it or leave it.

[joker]

Good grief. Ok of course good safe decisions should be encouraged but at what point does the Student 'turn into a pilot? How long does that school have to pay for a pilot's inability to forecast the weather?

 

If they are rated pilots they are they are 'trained 'in Meterology and have basic weather forecasting skills- or at least they should have! So I would say they must exercise this skill and take some responsibility and be accountable for their own actions. If they make a decision to Start up an aircraft, then decide it wasnt a good one based on some gut feeling, should the school bear the cost? Of course not.

 

Aviation involves many judgement calls. Lots of waiting for weather and on occasions finding out your decision was not a good one, and having to abandon a flight. The ability to make this call at a detriment to yourself is what separates good pilots from average pilots. Anyone can call / Cancel a flight when it doesn't cost them anything; that's easy!

 

ok. I would hope a school was not so rigid that it couldn't take individual cases into account. but there does need to be Some parameter in place Or the System will get abused 6y students. Eventually therjil be wanting their money back after getting 2 Miles away and spotting a thunder cloud!

 

Remember. a school reserves the right not to lend their aircraft and an instructor would not commence a flght or signoff a solo student if that instructor saw a risk. So if " you are sitting in the helicopter with the keys, the school / instructor have obviously made their decision. The final decision is yours- the pilot!!

 

if it would help;

As Aeronautical Decision Making isnow featured in every flight training program consider ''making weather judgement calls" as part of your flight training. Thus you Should pay for it regardless of what decision you arive at! He! He!

 

Joker

 

Sorry, another thing. Heli bear, dont forget that when you make your'late' decision to cancel because the wind has picked up to 15 Kts, it is probably too late for Someone like me (who loves flying in 15 Kt winds to take that aircraft. So it sits on the ground until the next booking.

Edited December 22, 2006 by joker