Finished Comm. add-on. DPE says I need another endorsement

[napalm]

I just finished (passed) my commercial add-on yesterday (in R-44 Raven I) and the DPE told me that I will need another endorsement from a qualified flight instructor. He said that my check ride was PIC so he couldn't give me the endorsement. I have an endorsement for solo flight (SFAR 73 2.(B)4 of course but the DPE said that now I need another endorsement to meet the requirements of SFAR 73 2( (2) flight review. I have heard so many different things about this and have gotten a thousand different answers. What do you guys think?

[delorean]

I gave my guys that endorsement prior to the checkride, since they would need to act as PIC on the checkride.

 

If you have less than 200 hrs, I would use this one:

 

I certify that Mr/Ms____________________ has been given the flight training specified by SFAR 73 paragraph 2((2)(ii)(A-D) for the Robinson R44 helicopter and is proficient to act as pilot in command. A flight review must be completed by _______________ unless the requirements of SFAR 73 paragraph 2((2)(i) are met.

 

Over 200 hrs w/ 50 in type:

 

I certify that Mr/Ms_____________________ has completed the Awareness Training as specified by SFAR 73 paragraph 2(a)(3)(i-v) and the flight training specified by SFAR 73 paragraph 2((2)(ii)(A-D) for the Robinson R44 helicopter on _____________ and has been found proficient to act as pilot in command.

[napalm]

Thanks a lot for the information. My instructor says that I need to fly with him again to meet these requirements after my check ride. From what you are saying that is not necessary and this endorsement should meet the requirements. Is that correct? Thanks for the input

[joker]

Napalm,

 

So you want to go teach in an R44?

 

It's quite difficult to tell you what you are missing, as you don't say what you have.

 

Before I start, have a look at SFAR 73-1-1 Check my emphasis below:

 

1. Applicability. Under the procedures prescribed herein, this SFAR applies to all persons who seek to manipulate the controls or act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter. The requirements stated in this SFAR are in addition to the current requirements of part 61.

 

Anyway, here's what I can see as necessary for you as a commercial add-on.

 

ALL PART 61 REQUIRED ENDORSEMENTS - 61.31(d)(3) Including 61.63(a)(2) and (3) endorsements for the category add-on.

 

(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

 

SFAR AWARENESS TRAINING - SFAR 73-1-2(a)(2)

 

(2) A person who holds a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating on their pilot certificate and meets the experience requirements of paragraph ((1) or ((2) of this section may not manipulate the controls of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter for the purpose of flight after April 26, 1995 unless the awareness training specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section is completed and the person's logbook has been endorsed by a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph ((5) of this section.

 

SOLO ENDORSEMENT - SFAR73-1-2((4) (Delorean's second example.) This expires after 90 days!

 

(4) A person who does not hold a rotocraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-44 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph ((5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R-44. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days.

 

TRAINING ENDORSEMENT - SFAR73-1-2((2)(ii) - This is when your 12 months starts.

 

(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in a Robinson helicopter, at least 5 hours of which must have been accomplished in the Robinson R-44 helicopter and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph ((5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-44.

 

CFI IN R44 ENDORSEMENT - SFAR73-1-2( (5)

 

(iv) Has been authorized by endorsement from an FAA aviation safety inspector or authorized designated examiner that the instructor has completed the appropriate training, meets the experience requirements and has satisfactorily demonstrated an ability to provide instruction on the general subject areas of paragraph 2(a)(3) of this SFAR, and the flight training identified in paragraph 2((5)(iii) of this SFAR.

 

Anual Review Required By SFAR73-1-2( (2)(ii) This won't apply to you just yet.

 

You require an endorsement every 12 months after your initial awareness training endorsement to say you have done a flight review (in R44) within the preceding 12 months.

 

(ii) ...Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in a Robinson R-44 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. So as you can see, your instructor must endorse both requirements.

 

 

If you can work out which one you are missing from that, then good luck.

 

You need EACH of the references above mentioned in your endorsements. Pay paticular attention to the PIC endorsement. This is required by both Part 61 and SFAR, and so both must be mentioned. Remember the SFAR is IN ADDITION to Part 61.

 

Also pay particular attention to the Solo endorsements. Remember, the SFAR solo endorsement expires after 90 days. Is it possible that this happened, and you now don't have a valid PIC endorsement for 61.31?

 

Likewise, the (2)((4) endorsement you got exprires, and nevertheless doesn't count as the required (2)((2) endorsement.

 

It is possible to lump similar endorsments together, it is important to still 'reference' the requirement, in order to satisfy the examiner or inspector.

 

Well, I knocked this up pretty quickly, so there could be errors. I'm sure someone will point them out!

 

Joker

Edited March 8, 2007 by joker

[Voluptuary5]

Joker,

 

Your instant and thorough recall of the SFARs never ceases to amaze me. Do you have the entire book MEMORIZED?

 

-V5

[joker]

Voluptuary5,

 

Hmmm, thanks, but I don't feel 100% about my references in my last post (hence the continual editing), so don't speak too soon. I've found a ton of mistakes already!!

 

As for memorising the FARs, there was once upon-a-time when I had them pretty squared away. Now I have to go online to find the exact references.

 

Joker

[napalm]

I have all the endorsements that you mentioned joker except there was no PIC endorsement like the one that delorean mentioned. The DPE didn't think say anything about me needing that endorsement before the checkride but said I would need one like that after the check ride and I was rated in helicopters. So I am now rated but am unsure if it is to late to get that endorsement, whether I need another dual lesson to get that endorsement, or whether my CFI can just give me the PIC endorsement now.

 

here is what I have

3550 total time

ATP AMEL

Commercial ASEL

CFI,CFII, MEI

Just got Commercial rotor wing add-on yesterday

Edited March 6, 2007 by napalm

[joker]

OK, I think I see what't happened.

 

You did not have a rotorcraft rating, so picked up and was endorsed for (2)((4). This expires after 90 days.

 

However, the examiner is saying that you have not been endorsed for the training required by (2)((2)(ii). This is a requirement for acting as PIC. It is from this date that your 12 months starts from. Fair enough.

 

I don't think it would be necessary to do any further flight, as you do meet the requirements of (2)((2) already. You just need the endorsement.

 

(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in a Robinson helicopter, at least 5 hours of which must have been accomplished in the Robinson R-44 helicopter and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph ((5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-44.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Joker

Edited March 6, 2007 by joker

[napalm]

thanks a lot. I will talk to my CFI about getting this endorsement

[napalm]

I talked to my CFI and he reminded me that the DPE was saying that even if I did have an endorsement like the one that delorean mentioned, because I was not a rated helicopter pilot during my check ride (even though I was PIC) that I needed another endorsement as a rated pilot to meet the requirements of the SFAR's that delorean mentioned in his/her endorsement above. Does that make sense? The DPE said that this issue of a second endorsement is a little controversial. He is the owner of a large helicopter training school and they did some research into this area and found a couple of cases where either the FAA or an insurance company went after a helicopter pilot who didn't have a second endorsement after they became a rated helicopter pilot. Does that make sense. It all seems a little strange to me. What do you all think?

[Pogue]

I talked to my CFI and he reminded me that the DPE was saying that even if I did have an endorsement like the one that delorean mentioned, because I was not a rated helicopter pilot during my check ride (even though I was PIC) that I needed another endorsement as a rated pilot to meet the requirements of the SFAR's that delorean mentioned in his/her endorsement above. Does that make sense? The DPE said that this issue of a second endorsement is a little controversial. He is the owner of a large helicopter training school and they did some research into this area and found a couple of cases where either the FAA or an insurance company went after a helicopter pilot who didn't have a second endorsement after they became a rated helicopter pilot. Does that make sense. It all seems a little strange to me. What do you all think?

I had an SFAR endorsement after my checkflight for PIC. The one before the license is the 90 day one, then there's the annual one for PIC until you have 200 hours, then it's the biannual review. Also the SFAR for the R22 doesn't count for the R44, which means you need to do both if you're going to fly both. At least that's my understanding

[joker]

I talked to my CFI and he reminded me that the DPE was saying that even if I did have an endorsement like the one that delorean mentioned, because I was not a rated helicopter pilot during my check ride (even though I was PIC) that I needed another endorsement as a rated pilot to meet the requirements of the SFAR's that delorean mentioned in his/her endorsement above. Does that make sense?

 

No! This makes no sense to me.

 

1. You can't have been PIC for your checkride. You didn't have the SFAR endorsement (2)((2)(ii)

 

2. You do need (2)((4) endorsement to go solo, before your chcekride.

 

3. You DO need (2)((2)(ii) before you fly (Delorean's) as PIC. Preferably this would be issued on the last day of your training (before your checkride), so you can be PIC for the checkride. However, you still meet the requirements of this paragraph after your checkride, so you should be able to be endorsed for this without further flight.

 

4. You don't need two of these (one before rated, one after rated) as this endorsement has nothing to do with whether you are rated or not. It has to do with whether you have the 10 hrs and have had the training. Your initial training is 'TIME-0' and the 12 months starts after that! You just need the endorsement to get the clock ticking. See the (a-d) of ((4) is the same as ((2)(ii).

 

Well, we're getting into the realm of 'legal' interpretations, which is where I stop, so, I'd be interested to find out what you decide. If you and instructor feel better, then do one hour, and get an endorsement.

 

Personally, I'd just get the instructor to backdate that (2)((2)(ii) endorsement to the last day of training before you checkride. Everything would be hunkydory then.

 

Good luck

 

Joker

Edited March 7, 2007 by joker

[heligirl03]

None of this pertains to me directly, but this is the kind of thread that gives the internet a good name and makes this forum absolutely top notch. I would not be half so informed as I am with VR, and I just started full-time training last month. Partially due to VR and partially to having lots of friends who are drivers already, my knowledge and preparedness seem to always pleasantly surprise my instructors. Just a huge shout out to everyone here, thanks for always being ready with ideas, opinions, facts, references, etc etc. Amazing. I can't wait to be on the offering end of things!