r22 vs 300cb

[dlo22]

hello all,

 

just like to say that I began my training in the R22 and It was power limited, with my instructor and I, found the helicopter to be ok for learning and soloed it in 22 hours. got that itch, and took a flight in the 300cb... I wanted to try something else and get some time in a bird I would be more likely to teach in...

 

I have to say, after two hours in the 300cb, that thing is a turd.. I thought the thing flew like a big heavey beer can. Sure I loved the extra room in the cabin, the real cyclic stick, and the higher skid profile. felt like I was in a bigger ship and maybe more like a real heli at first... but then the flight...... taking off and flying this thing around was a nightmare.... that thing has such a nose low attitude, I felt as if I was falling over in my seat.... We were 2,000 ft and we finnally nosed this thing over to see what it had.. I could not believe that we were so far pitched foreward and we could only catch 70 knts fully pinned and rubbing the dash... then taking off was the same way, nose it over so far and just get going, ... did an auto or two, and didn't feel as if we were gliding 65knts, more like falling strait down.. then did some hovering exercises and the thing wasn't very agile at all. had to move the stick two feet to get that beer can to hover sideways.. The thing just felt very big and bulky, very slow and sluggish, very stable and the pedals were even hard to push... I felt as if i had to stomp on the pedals to do a pedal turn... not to mention all of that yaw when rolling the throttle on a bit or off just a bit. all I can say is that I was not impressed at all, and do not see how this could be such a great training helicopter.... I can understand for your first ten or fifteen hours, but man, after you get the concept, that thing becomes very slow and sluggish... getting passed by cars on the freeway is just embarrassing...

 

All in all, I felt as if I like the robbie better, the 300 may have a bit more power, but I didn;t see it, the 300 may be more stable, that is true, but it is very sluggish, to the point where it is a workout flying the thing. and yes , the heli is much bigger and way more comfortable than the robbie. easier to fly, ya probably, but flying the robbie is so much more fun... The robbie feels like a quick and agile sports car, where the 300 feels like a big semi truck.... The autorotations kindof got me, I felt like the glide ratio was crap in the 300 and felt as if I was just falling like a rock. the robbie felt more realistic....

 

does anyone agree with me, or is this just something I would have to get used to ... Is it true what I am saying, the 300 cb is very slow and sluggish, more stable but almost too stable. I do not see the benifit in training in the 300 if you already have the concept down, working on your commercial and instrament. I can see how a brand new student would benifit from the easy controls on the 300 but after that, the 300 just seems like a less capable helicopter... I thought the 300 cb was supposed to have more inertia in the rotors and be more forgiving on autorotations... is this true, I noticed the rpms did not spike as fast in the 300, so contolling the rpms in the 300 seemed easier, but just playing around, hovering and turning, taking off and staying low, the robbie, seemed to be much easier to control, not worrying about the engine rpm and what not, plus the 300 seemed to have less tail authority........

 

I was also told later that day, that the 300 cb handles more like a real helicopter, whatever that means, could this be true, that the 300 cb feels more like an astar or a jet ranger???????

 

any comments..

[franky17]

I think they are an "old style" of flying (300) as far as the dash step up, and technology it just seems old to me for some reason and so on.

I HATE going slow... I have the NEED for SPEED! the 300 just isnt my friend.

[Goldy]

I've flown that series once...it was an older 269, more HP I think. The correlator was fine, but I was adjusting the throttle here and there too much for my liking. Much like the R22 when it only had a correlator (pre-governor days). Yes, it does feel heavy, I like flying it in the wind, very little neg G feelings..a much heavier aircraft. Yes, movements are much more pronounced, crosswind turns take a lot more cyclic and pedals than the R22 would.

 

As far as feeling like a bigger bird? I dont think so. The 269 doesnt have the hydraulic delays that you feel in larger aircraft. I'm a pretty big guy, so I also like the room in the 269/300...its just the doorframe is right across my vision path and really gets in the way when clearing turns or looking for other aircraft.

 

And yes, I hate flying slower than driving in LA...where oh where is that perfect helicopter? ( you know, the one where the blades stay on AND its fun to fly !!)

 

Goldy

[John90290]

The robbie feels like a quick and agile sports car, where the 300 feels like a big semi truck....

 

Oh no, a r22 vs. 300 thread

 

When you have a mishap, would you rather be in an agile sports car or a semi truck? I train in a 300 so my bias is the other way. I just feel more comfortable in a 300. I do agree that it's slow as Christmas, but hey, what's the rush? "

[Galadrium]

The Robinson R22 was never designed to be a trainer, period. The H269/300 has far more forgiving flight characteristics such as more power, a fully articulated rotor system, and a far more beefy skid system. Also, considering the fact that Frank Robinson himself discourages the use of the R22 as a trainer, I think the 300 is a far superior helicopter as far as training goes.

 

If you are looking for a helicopter to transport an experienced pilot from point A to point B, the R22 is probably your most economical certified helicopter.

[southernweyr]

One thing to note is that the CB is a sluggish dog. However, the 300C model has more HP and performs better. Still, they are very slow and very nose low in forward flight. Try a C model before you cement your judgement into your head. Also, remember each helicopter does different thing better. The C model has more room and carries more weight. The R22 cruises faster and burns less fuel. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

[svtcobra66]

And lets not forget autos, 300s are WAY more forgiving. Like Galadrium said, the R22 was never designed for training.

[ascott20]

Hey guys, I think the horse has been dead for awhile... stop beating it!

[67november]

[Guest rookie101]

Taken right from the FAQ:

 

The R-22 or Schweizer 300?

Debating what helo to train in? Check out these topics.

1. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...p;hl=need+help*

2. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...p;hl=need+help*

3. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...ic=3904&hl=

4. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...ic=3802&hl=

5. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...amp;hl=training

 

No for heavan sake this topic hasen't been beaten to death. No not with FIVE threads concerning this very subject in the FAQ. Maybe if there was one more, people might read it

[brushfire21]

Thank you guys for kicking this dead horse hahaha!

 

If your doing auto's at 65kts, your getting into the max distance/faster decent curve in a 300C as I recall. Auto's for max hang time and shortest distance are going to be slower, somewhere around 50kts. I will take the 300, thankyou.

 

You can keep the underslung teetering rotoring system and delaminating rotor blades. Now that I have slammed the horse a few times myself, its time to go sit down and have something to drink!

[joker]

Hey guys, I think the horse has been dead for awhile... stop beating it!

 

Actually, this is a debate which will always resurface with every fresh wave of students coming through as long as those two aircraft exist.

 

If you can't beat them, join them! So here I am stepping in to stir the pot!

 

At least DLO22 has had the decency to try both types. It sort of adds a little weight to his comments, more than many people who so confidently speak of the pro's and con's of either type without a sniff at the other!

 

While I agree with most of his objective observations on the differences, I question his expertise to subjectively judge these differences as being pros or cons. They are simply differences!

 

As to making a judgement on which is the better trainer, then I am pleased to say that DLO22 doesn't try to do this...much.

 

I was also told later that day, that the 300 cb handles more like a real helicopter,

They are both real helicopters! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

Generally, people will be more biased to whatever they did their primary training in.

 

did an auto or two, and didn't feel as if we were gliding 65knts, more like falling strait down

Cue deliberately contraversial comment: I am happy for my increased sense of urgency which I have developed during my auto training in 269s. No time to waste maneuvouring for a spot. Try going to fixed wing after helicopters (even the R22)....you have soooooo much time on your hands that engine failures are a mere inconvenience!

 

I can see how a brand new student would benifit from the easy controls on the 300,

Horray!!! That's what I've always said. 269 is a better primary trainer!

 

after you get the concept, that thing becomes very slow and sluggish

Actually, the machine stays the same, its you that gets quicker. Perfect for training.

 

the 300 just seems like a less capable helicopter

Couldn't be further from the truth. Dennis what's-his-name at Shoreham, in the UK springs to mind.

 

Now tell me, what good is that extra 14kts when training. How many of the PTS maneuvers are executed at 94kts?

 

For X-country and instrument flying, yes R22 is better (er...cheaper). For maneuver training, 300CB. Simple.

 

OK. We have all been here before. I'm just bored! There are some broken links above which I'm sure have pages of my detailed thoughts.

 

I know Fling would be love to be in on this one too (rest his soul).

 

Joker

Edited April 13, 2007 by joker