Logging dual recieved and PIC

[svtcobra66]

I was wondering if any of you could point me in the right direction...Exactly where is it in the FARs that you can log dual received and PIC at the same time (I know everything after your private is PIC, but where does it discuss how it works w/ dual being given and logging PIC?) Seems to be common knowledge, but I'd like to be able to back it up, as I have run into a few people telling me it has to be either dual received or PIC, not both.

 

Thanks

[67november]

read thru the latter part of this thread, we got a bit off topic BUT it's very educational

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...?showtopic=8671

[svtcobra66]

Read the whole thing, but still a little confused as to where the fine print is in the FARs dealing with this, proving both sides (that the private rated pilot can log it as PIC, and also as dual received). Again, I know the answer to the question, but I'm more or less looking for hard proof of it. I interpreted 61.51 to say essentially what I'm getting at, but I want to be sure I'm reading it correctly.

[67november]

yes it's a bit confusing. it's a bit of .51 and .113 of part 61, read thru them a few times and REMEMBER "acting and logging" are different, just like "may and shall"

think about it the lightbulb will come on eventually.

Edited January 16, 2008 by 67november

[svtcobra66]

I get what the other thread was saying, but that was dealing more with commercial ops, and I'm talking about instruction at a typical flight school, in which case 61.113 doesn't really apply. And as someone who used to do aviation insurance, that other thread scares the hell out of me, because if those insurance companies found out someone was touching the controls and they weren't on the insurance policy, bad things would happen if the heli got scratched....

 

Anyway, to clarify, I am strictly speaking about an instructor flying with a student at a flight school, the instructor is logging PIC b/c thats clearly spelled out in 61.51, but if dual is received, doesn't the PPL-rated pilot have to be manipulating controls to be PIC? And if so, does that mean you have to take away PIC time for them every time you take hold of the controls as a CFI? Because if dual is received, does that imply that the other guy wasn't flying it? I know I'm getting a little too deep here, but I want to see if there is something written that makes it pretty clear and set in stone.

[67november]

it's not exactly whats written but how to interpret it.

 

for instance.

you go flying with a CFI, the CFI takes off and heads to the practice field, once there he turns all of the controls over to you for an hour, you are allowed to log that hour as PIC under dual instruction. the CFI flys back to base. now the time that the CFI is in control is logged as dual non PIC.

 

clear as mud???

 

[Goldy]

And as someone who used to do aviation insurance, that other thread scares the hell out of me, because if those insurance companies found out someone was touching the controls and they weren't on the insurance policy, bad things would happen if the heli got scratched....

 

It would never happen that way though. Ok, so the low time guy is flying and the CFI is hanging on...the turbine she stops a turnin..the CFI grabs the controls and he is now PIC, he lands the ship, the other guy is just listed as a passenger. When the chips are down, the guy with the 5000 hours has control of the ship. If I owned the insurance company I would have no problem with it...of course...I dont own the insurance company !!

[joker]

CFI and PPL go out to do some training for PPL's commercial certificate.

 

As its PPLs own aircraft, PPL says I will be responsible for this flight its my aircraft. I will act as PIC for the purpose of this flight.

 

They fly for exactly 1 hour. In that time CFI was on the controls demonstrating maneourvers for a total of 15 minutes. PPL was on the controls performing for 45 minutes.

 

 

How do they log this?

 

It depends on how you log your dual training. Where in the FAR is a log of 'Dual Flight Time' required? Notice, 'Dual' is not listed as a loggable 'type of piloting experience'. I don't know of a definition of 'Dual Time'.

 

The only requirement is that you log 'flight training received from an authorised instructor'. It doen't matter if this was as PIC or dual. It just says 'flight training received'. So you can simply add another column or log this elsewhere.

 

In fact, people have made up this category of 'dual' to cover the times when they were not manipulating the controls, but still want to log the full hour of flight time to credit to other certificates, and fill their resumes. They want a name for that 15 minutes!

 

 

Before passing your private, this question never arises, as all of the time (with an instructor on board) goes down as 'DUAL'. There is no difference between DUAL, TRAINING and TOTAL time.

 

After you are rated, the problem does arise. No one ever explains that Dual and PIC don't have to add up to total, or that Training and Dual don't mean the same thing, or that Training can be logged elsewhere.

 

There are two common solutions below. Also is a breakdown of how the example should be logged for each.

 

A - PIC + DUAL + SIC = TOTAL

 

CFI: PIC 1hr - 61.51(e)(3)

 

PPL: PIC 45mins - 61.51(e)(1)(i), Dual 15mins - 61.51((2)(iv), Flight Training Received 1hr - 61.51((1)(iv), Total Flight Time 1hr - 61.51((2)(ii)

(Note the extra column for 'flight training'.)

 

 

B - PIC / DUAL / SIC are logged as record of pilot experience, but don't necessarily add up to TOTAL TIME.

 

DUAL is equivilent to 'Training Received'

 

CFI: PIC 1hr

 

PPL: PIC 45mins, Dual 1hr , Total Flight Time 1hr

(This would mean that the 15mins flight time when, PPL didn't have control is unlogged. That's fine, its not required anyway.)

 

Notice in both examples, PIC is 45mins and Total is 1hr. Those can't be messed with.

 

 

There are so many variations to this. People logging the whole hour as PIC - just because they are rated. This is wrong! As in my example, PPL can 'act' as PIC, but can still only log as per 61.51(e).

 

Think of it this way. The FAR doesn't care 'who was responsible for the flight'. That's for the law courts to decide when there's an accident. The FAR only cares about 'who got the experience'. In a single pilot aircraft, that is the one manipulating the controls.

 

Your confusion is valid because so many people have this wrong. Even logbooks you buy at the shops suggest it wrong!

 

I could be wrong, but until someone explains it I will not double log my trainng time. As it happens, I have way more than enough of everything for it to matter anymore!

 

Elsewhere around the world, they have a column which bridges A and B. This is 'Pilot In Command Under Instruction / Supervision'. This will give credit for a rated pilot, performing all the duties of a PIC, but still having training. This time is normally credited as half PIC time.

 

In my own logbook, I use B, but have had to add a column (P1UI) to satisfy other authorities. This time does not add to my PIC column (unless authorities allow it). It does add to my 'training received column'.

 

Joker

Edited January 16, 2008 by joker

[clay]

so as a CFI, can someone log it as dual given and PIC time?

[RockyMountainPilot]

so as a CFI, can someone log it as dual given and PIC time?

 

Time before passing your private is not all dual. Solo time is logged as PIC time only and not logged as dual. You only need to log dual that time which you want credited toward a certificate, rating, endorsement, review or proficiency check. You may also want to log dual for insurance purposes.

 

If you are flying with a CFI and you are a private pilot rated and current int he aircraft, the CFI is not automatically acting as PIC. As a CFI, I do not need to be current, or even have a valid medical to instruct, and cannot, under the regulations, act as PIC. When I fly with a pilot who owns their own aircraft, I have them sign a form stating that they are the acting PIC at all times, however, this does not mean they have to land the aircraft if the engine quits or some other emergency occurs. They can still elect to delegate that task to me. I am never acting PIC during the flight, but I can log all the time as PIC because:

 

61.51 (e)(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

 

The private pilot or acting PIC can still only log that time in which they are sole manipulator of the controls. This is true whether they are acting PIC or I am acting PIC. This is because:

 

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

 

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

 

Nothing in the regs state that a non-insured pilot, or a non-commercial pilot may take the controls of an aircraft carrying passengers or property for hire. However, a companies Operations Specifications may prohibit this, and those specifications are regulatory for that operation.

 

If you are rated and you are sole manipulator of the controls, you log it as PIC. Doesn't matter if you are not current, have no medical, or even if you lack the proper endorsements such as for a high performance or retractable airplane. You still get to log is as PIC. If you are receiving dual instruction, then the entire flight can be logged as dual. If you are legally acting as PIC, then you still only log the time as sole manipulator of the controls as PIC.

[joker]

Clay,

 

so as a CFI, can someone log it as dual given and PIC time?

 

I'm not totally sure where you're going with this.

 

Any Dual Time (Flight Training Received) may be logged by the instructor as Flight Training Given. If it's in the student's logbook, it may appear in the CFI's logbook too. That is not part of the CFI's 'piloting time' though. Its just a record of training given.

 

Also, you can't have 2 CFI's logging PIC time simultaneously. Only one is acting as an authorized instructor as per 61.51(e)(3).

 

Lets say CFI needs to get his instrument instructor rating. He goes out with CFII to do this for 1hr flight. CFII flies for 10 minutes (takeoffs and landings). CFI flies for the remainder.

 

You are asking whether / how CFI can log dual and PIC.

 

CFII (acting as an authorized instructor) - PIC 1hr, Total 1hr

 

CFI - PIC 50mins, Dual 1hr, Total 1hr

 

As Mr. PPL before, CFI is only a pilot. Thus, he can only log PIC when he is the sole manipulator.

 

Joker

 

Just to clarify some stuff from before.

 

Dual flight training is opposed to Solo Flight Training. i.e. Solo + Dual = Flight Training Received. They may not bear relation to Total time at all. A logbook may show: PIC 45, Dual 1hr, Solo 1hr, Total Time 3hrs.

 

Those are the regulations. In practice what happens is instructors simply allow the student to sign the entire flight as PIC. After all, it is perfectly plausible for an instructor to instruct a whole session without touching the controls. Who is going to know? Who is going to ask? So, people get away with logging the entire time as PIC.

 

This is where the myth has arisen that 'if you're rated in the aircraft, its all PIC'. But this is only a myth.

 

I would love to ask a 'commercial candidate' who has logged all his commercial flight training as PIC, "So, when did your instructor do any demonstrations?"

 

Joker

 

RockyMountainPilot - I just edited my previous post to reflect your comment about pre-private time being all logged as dual! Of course solo flight training is logged as solo. Your last paragraph is spot on! If that is not clear enough, then nothing will be!

Edited January 16, 2008 by joker