Logging Flight Time

[Ryan S]

I am a military pilot and log flight time per AR 95-1 (Army Regulation)

 

In AR 95-1

2–7. Computation of flying time

Flying time starts when an airplane begins to move forward on the takeoff roll or when a helicopter lifts off the

ground. Flying time ends when the aircraft has landed and the engines are stopped or the flying crew changes.

 

I have heard a number of rumors about the way that civilians log Helo time and I was hoping that someone could set me straight. I have heard that as a military pilot we can add from 10% to 30% on to our flight time when we go civilian. This being based on Civilians starting their time when the battery turns on or when the first engine starts. Also being that my aircraft has wheels and I am not logging time when I am ground taxiing.

 

When do most civilians start logging time? and is it true that I can add hours when applying to a civilian job. I am not wanting to cheat. I am mostly just curious, but I would like to be on a level playing field upon the first look.

 

Thanks,

 

Ryan

[FauxZ]

Generally speaking we log time based on the Hobbs meter. Now the Hobbs meter can be run different ways, most common are an oil pressure switch or a collective up switch. For example, the R22 hobbs starts to count as soon as oil pressure is detected in the engine, so any time the engine is running, we can log that as time.

 

How that applies to transitioning hours from mil to civ I'm not sure. Do a forum search and you'll find at least one topic on tracking Hobbs time on this site.

[Goldy]

I have heard a number of rumors about the way that civilians log Helo time

 

Most civilian time is based on the hobbs meter, and yes, most training ships are triggered from master battery or oil pressure. I would not think you can "add" any flight time, but you can certainly explain that your log is based on military criteria and that IF they are comparing that to the civilian world, you would certainly have more experience than your log shows. As far as logging time, its covered in the FAR's 61.51 b which simply states to log "Total flight time or lesson time". The details of what that actually is, well you look up the definition of flight time and it states "commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purposes of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing".

 

Once I start my 4 banger, the tail starts shaking. In my humble opinion that qualifies as "moving". Besides that my blades are spinning, that is certainly "moving" right ? and its for the purposes of flight, correct? I find it very hard to get airborne when my rotors are just sitting still.....my sarcasm is just meant to show that everything is subject to interpretation.

Just one more reason why you don't want to go see the DPE with the bare minimum of time.

 

I'm guessing though, that you have a few hours based on what you are flying, I dont really think that adding a hundred or two will make all that much difference, nor do I think that any qualified military pilot with a good attitude will have any problem moving into a civilian helo job.

 

Fly safe, thanks for your service!

 

Goldy

Edited April 11, 2008 by Goldy

[relyon]

Most civilian time is based on the hobbs meter, ...

Most civilian training time is based on a Hobbs meter; many aircraft used for commercial purposes have no Hobbs meter at all. Instead, times are derived from pilot time references (clock, watch, etc.) and document entries (logbooks, flight sheets, etc.) for both maintanence and revenue purposes. Operations are charged to the minute with time being measured from skids up to skids down and maintenance time is done in tenths by calculation.

 

Bob

[relyon]

Oops ...

Edited April 11, 2008 by relyon

[rick1128]

Most civilian training time is based on a Hobbs meter; many aircraft used for commercial purposes have no Hobbs meter at all. Instead, times are derived from pilot time references (clock, watch, etc.) and document entries (logbooks, flight sheets, etc.) for both maintanence and revenue purposes. Operations are charged to the minute with time being measured from skids up to skids down and maintenance time is done in tenths by calculation.

 

Bob

 

Actually the last commercial helicopter operator I worked for had hobbs meters in all their helicopters. Most helicopters do way too many TO's and Lndg's for the pilot to keep accurate track of the flight times. In turbine helicopters, this is especially important. For most commercial operators, the hobbs is tied to the collective. You pull power, it records. However, some wheeled helicopters may have it tied to the squat switch in the gear. That has led to some interesting conversations with the FAA over the proper logging of flight time.

 

For the original poster, personally I would look at your average time taxiing in and out for flights and use that as an adjustment for your wheeled helicopter time. Just be able to explain how you cam up with that adjustment and I don't see any company having major issues with it. It has to be reasonable. The other way is to go with your present military time and keep an unofficial record of your times in accordance with the FAR's.

[relyon]

My apologies up front for the OT sidenote.

 

... Most helicopters do way too many TO's and Lndg's for the pilot to keep accurate track of the flight times. In turbine helicopters, this is especially important. ...

The operator I work for has no Hobbs meters in their aircraft and they're not alone in doing things that way. I have personally done and recorded as many as 48 takeoffs and landings in an eight hour flight period during a fourteen hour duty day; I know pilots who have recorded almost twice that. I'm extremely methodical about doing the required individual leg manifest that includes:

• Departure point
  
• Arrival point
  
• Time off (hh:mm)
  
• Time on (hh:mm)
  
• Fuel in pounds
  
• Flight time in minutes
  
• Takeoff weight
  
• CG validation check initials
  
• Passenger name(s)
  
• Passenger company name(s)
  
• Passenger weight(s)
  
• Passenger baggage weight(s)
  
• Cargo weight(s)
  
• Weight sum(s)
  
• Remarks
  
• A running total of flight times in minutes
  

One learns to omit the arrival point, time on, and flight times until actually arriving. My personal technique is to write the manifest for the leg, start a zeroed hh:mm:ss timer, then raise the collective and take off. After landing I lower collective, stop but not reset the timer, and record the arrival point, time on, and flight time. Landing for any reason constitutes completing a given leg manifest and requires a new one be started. I've logged as little as one minute to just over two hours this way. It sounds very complicated but it's not and takes seconds to do.

 

Keep in mind while all this is being done one still has to be aware of where passengers and ground personnel are and what they're doing. "Actively on duty" definitely descibes the pilot of a single required crewmember helicopter while performing them.

 

Bob

[Wally]

As soon as everything is rock and roll, I start a timer, then pull pitch.

As soon as I land, throttle back to ground idle, immediately after flight controls secured- a second or two- I note elapsed time on the timer (for cool down before shutdown) and local time. Round the ET up/down. The company wants departure logged just prior to lift, but with pax, traffic and inevitable delays, that's not good practice.

As a backup, I'll use the GPS time of departure, or ask company flight following for departure call time.

To me, flight time is just that- time flying. "Turning and burning" has some adherents, and I won't argue about it. But I don't log maintenance run-ups, so...

[Gomer Pylot]

It's your logbook, and you log what you think is right. I've done it several ways over the years, but mostly from skids up to skids down. I flew one job that did well over 100 takeoffs per day, every day, and we just logged 2 minutes per flight, because there wasn't time to write down much else. I would be in the cockpit, running, for 8 to 10 hours every day, but logged only 3 or so hours of flight time. I don't know of any companies in the GOM that use Hobbs meters, except for a few ships on specific jobs for specific customers. The aircraft I fly now uses a Hobbs meter connected to the collective, and I can use whatever I like for logging my flight time - Hobbs, GPS time written down, or the GPS logs every flight, with actual flight time, more or less. I'm not trying to build time, so I generally just use whatever the Hobbs shows. I don't even keep a personal logbook any more, other than the company paperwork. I just round my time down to the nearest thousand.

[Node]

A different perspective than the average CFI watching that robbie hobs....999.1,999.2,999.3.... .

[palmfish]

Fly what you can, log what you need...

[Ryan S]

Thank You!

[flyingseapig]

In our business we have retreactable landing gear on our helo and our Hobbs meter is connected to the landing gear weight on wheels switch. For billing purposes we bill the customer on the actual flight time off the Hobbs meter which is running when we lift off. We also have wheels which we can ground taxi with where we aren't logging Hobbs time but in a helo you still have the moving parts. So for logbooks we log from rotor start to rotor shutdown since the controls are always needed to be manned by a pilot and you never know when you may need to lift off, unless there is any extended time we are turning while sitting on the ground. Once again it is your logbook log what you feel is right and adding or cheating will only be noticed by padding your logbook when you are actually doing a checkride with a potential employer.

[Ryan S]

Once again it is your logbook log what you feel is right and adding or cheating will only be noticed by padding your logbook when you are actually doing a checkride with a potential employer.

 

I think flyingseapig might have been confused by my original question. I am not cheating or padding or attempting to cheat or pad my hours. I log flight time per Army Regulation 95-1. It is an Army standard. Unless the regulation changes then the way I log time will not change.

 

My question was asking if the information that was being passed around in my area of operations was correct. And based on the responses, it is true that civilians generally log more time per actual flying hour than Army pilots do (wheeled aircraft at least). Again to my original question, it would make sense that employers would adjust an Army pilots total time to make it comparable to a civilians. But whether or not that happens, I don't know. What I do know is that I will have to fly more than a civilian in order to have the same number of hours in my log book. I can accept that (maybe combat nvg time will be worth bonus points).

 

Thanks for everyones help.

 

Ryan