Other pilots opinion of LE pilots

[More_Cowbell]

Just a little background. I am fairly new to helicopters. I am still in the process of training (working on my instrument rating as we speak). However, I took a reserve commision with a Sheriff's Office I previously worked for as a road deputy in order to fly thier newly acquired surplus OH-58. I asked around on here as I was beginning my training and got so much really good advice I thought this might be the place to ask a serious question that has been bugging me lately.

 

The more I am around "real" helicopter pilots (real to me being anybody past their instructor time), the more I get the impression that LE pilots are held in pretty low regard. You might even call it contempt. Most seem to bring up the public use side of it and how often it seems to be abused by LE aviation. A lot seem to have the impression it's a bunch of good ol' boys out joyriding on taxpayers dime, especially the Sheriff's with their new Army provided toys. Overall, I have heard alot more bad than good about LE aviation on the whole.

 

The Sheriff I'm with is an Ex-AF F-4 pilot, and takes training and operations very seriously. However, that background is probably fairly rare. I have heard tales (true or not ... I have no idea) of LE pilots being turned loose with virtually no training. What does that type of thing do for those that do take it seriously?

 

Will being affiliated with a Sheriff's Office, even just volunteering my time on a reserve commision, wind up doing my resume more harm than it's worth down the road. I have no inclination to fly LE full time. I'm not trying to work my way into anything as far as getting back into police work full time. Eventually I want to fly HEMS, but I actually look forward to flying in the GOM or utility work for a while to gain the experience in order to become a trully competent and professional pilot. I'm not one to do things half assed, and kind of hate to think I might get painted with that brush just by the company I keep.

 

Anybody have much experience as far as post LE flying and whether it hurt them at all? Is it worth considering or is it just more "F^ the police" type crap?

[Trol]

My guess would be its a $%#$ the police type attitude. My agency requires you have a private license (fixed wing or rotor), before you can even apply for our unit. They train you to the commercial ticket. We average around 90 - 100 hrs before they even let us get the private add on check ride. Once we get the commercial ticket, we have to have at least 250 plus hours before we are cut loose to fly police calls. While building that time we can fly with an instructor or a senior pilot (one with 5 years and 1000 hrs).

We get in house check rides every 6 months and if you've been off on vacation or something for more then a week you have to get an in house check ride.

Several other agencies that I have talked to have simular type training programs. Those in the civilian side that knock LE pilots, are probably just envious and turn that into hatred. A 300-400 hr CFI in the civilian side would still be a rookie in our program. Now, don't take this as me saying anything to knock civilian pilots/CFI's, because that is not my point nor intention.

[Gomer Pylot]

Like any other pilot, it depends on the pilot. Some LE pilots seem to have a stereotypical cop attitude, and the ones who do give all the others a bad name. While most agencies require an FAA pilot's certificate and maintain their aircraft to high standards, nothing requires them to, other than their own policies. One agency which puts an officer with no flight experience in the seat and sends him out with minimal training hurts all the others, and everyone gets lumped in the same barrel, right or wrong. Add in a bad attitude by that pilot, and the hard feelings spread far and wide, and quickly. It may not be right, but that's the way it works. The insistence by many departments on training police officers as pilots, as opposed to using experienced pilots with no police experience, only serves to intensify these feelings.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Gomer Pylot

[EC120AV8R]

Like any other pilot, it depends on the pilot. Some LE pilots seem to have a stereotypical cop attitude, and the ones who do give all the others a bad name. While most agencies require an FAA pilot's certificate and maintain their aircraft to high standards, nothing requires them to, other than their own policies. One agency which puts an officer with no flight experience in the seat and sends him out with minimal training hurts all the others, and everyone gets lumped in the same barrel, right or wrong. Add in a bad attitude by that pilot, and the hard feelings spread far and wide, and quickly. It may not be right, but that's the way it works. The insistence by many departments on training police officers as pilots, as opposed to using experienced pilots with no police experience, only serves to intensify these feelings.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find an agency that does not have properly trained and certificated pilots in this day and age. Agencies can't afford the liability. The days of operating under the auspices of Public Use with respect to the pilots, are pretty much gone. Aircraft are a different story.

 

I agree that the "insistence" to make officers pilots does create some animosity in some pilot circles, but it always seems to be sour grapes. You have a group of pilots who had their training paid for by someone else and had a guaranteed flying job after completion of training. We never had to train students to "pay our dues" and earn hours to get our first "real" job. In that respect, it's no different than the military. You don't see many pilots begrudging them their jobs.

 

Our particular policy is that we have to first complete Tactical Flight Officer ("Observer") training, and generally work as a TFO for a year before you can even go to flight school. We use an outside school, and our pilots finish with a commercial ticket and instrument rating. Once that is complete, they come back to our unit and begin our in-house training, and can only fly with our CFI's until they have a minimum of 500 hours (rotorcraft) and take an in-house check ride with the chief pilot. Only then can you be a line pilot.

 

Combine that with experienced officers with an average of 15 years on the street (for our unit) prior to becoming pilots, it fits our mission well. Could we hire experienced outside pilots, and use sworn officers as TFO's? Sure. But how many officers would jump at the chance of becoming a career TFO without the hope of becoming a pilot? You would have a hard time filling that seat.

[Gomer Pylot]

Well, maybe, but I would think many would prefer riding in a helicopter to riding in a car, even if they can never drive. You can fill the seats, that isn't the issue, but I doubt things are going to change anyway. I have no dog in this fight, and departments can do whatever they want in any case.

[Wally]

The good agencies are top notch. There are good pilots at marginal agencies, too, so one can't make blanket statements as to LE pilots as a whole.

What LE aviation does suffer from is political interference with aviation issues that color a lot of opinions unfairly,and pretty narrow field of possible experience. A couple of thousand hours in the same city, county, or nearby counties is pretty slim when you leave that area. In spite of that, I've met some pretty sharp peace officer/aviators.

[More_Cowbell]

I think you would be hard pressed to find an agency that does not have properly trained and certificated pilots in this day and age. Agencies can't afford the liability. The days of operating under the auspices of Public Use with respect to the pilots, are pretty much gone. Aircraft are a different story.

 

I agree that the "insistence" to make officers pilots does create some animosity in some pilot circles, but it always seems to be sour grapes. You have a group of pilots who had their training paid for by someone else and had a guaranteed flying job after completion of training. We never had to train students to "pay our dues" and earn hours to get our first "real" job. In that respect, it's no different than the military. You don't see many pilots begrudging them their jobs.

 

Our particular policy is that we have to first complete Tactical Flight Officer ("Observer") training, and generally work as a TFO for a year before you can even go to flight school. We use an outside school, and our pilots finish with a commercial ticket and instrument rating. Once that is complete, they come back to our unit and begin our in-house training, and can only fly with our CFI's until they have a minimum of 500 hours (rotorcraft) and take an in-house check ride with the chief pilot. Only then can you be a line pilot.

 

Combine that with experienced officers with an average of 15 years on the street (for our unit) prior to becoming pilots, it fits our mission well. Could we hire experienced outside pilots, and use sworn officers as TFO's? Sure. But how many officers would jump at the chance of becoming a career TFO without the hope of becoming a pilot? You would have a hard time filling that seat.

 

EC120,

This is a little off the subject, but how much court time do you get stuck with? Does the air unit wind up with a subpoena just because they were orbiting overhead? I sure hope not. Spending two or three mornings a week sitting around waiting for them to come out about noon to say every case has been continued, be here same time next week is one of the reasons I got out of LE in the first place.

[More_Cowbell]

Most opinions seem to be the the larger full time PD aviation units are pretty good. While the little podunk SO's and thier surplus Kiowas have a bad reputation. Just Great! I am so screwed.

 

But seriously, I'm not worried about it disqualifying me down the road so much as just being aware of what's out there. For my time spent reserving I hope to accumulate the night experience (both aided and unaided) that I wouldn't get otherwise. Hopefully it will make me a more profficient and well rounded pilot. I figure that kind of experience might come in handy one day when I eventually find myself in EMS.

[EC120AV8R]

Most opinions seem to be the the larger full time PD aviation units are pretty good. While the little podunk SO's and thier surplus Kiowas have a bad reputation. Just Great! I am so screwed.

 

But seriously, I'm not worried about it disqualifying me down the road so much as just being aware of what's out there. For my time spent reserving I hope to accumulate the night experience (both aided and unaided) that I wouldn't get otherwise. Hopefully it will make me a more profficient and well rounded pilot. I figure that kind of experience might come in handy one day when I eventually find myself in EMS.

 

I wouldn't worry about the reputation issue. I agree with Gomer that it all depends on the pilot. Let your attitude and experience speak for you. As for your question about court time, we don't get too many subpoenas, but your milage may vary.

[palmfish]

Well, maybe, but I would think many would prefer riding in a helicopter to riding in a car, even if they can never drive. You can fill the seats, that isn't the issue, but I doubt things are going to change anyway. I have no dog in this fight, and departments can do whatever they want in any case.

 

It's all I can do to get a street agent to go up in the air as a spotter during an operation. They're mostly afraid of getting airsick!

 

On the subject though - I think flight time is flight time. During a job interview, your level of professionalism will be sized up by your knowledge, experience, logbook, appearance, and interpersonal skills. If you have a chance to get an agency to pay for your training and then pay you to fly an OH-58, that sounds like a win - win scenario to me.

Edited July 12, 2008 by palmfish

[EC120AV8R]

It's all I can do to get a street agent to go up in the air as a spotter during an operation. They're mostly afraid of getting airsick!

 

On the subject though - I think flight time is flight time. During a job interview, your level of professionalism will be sized up by your knowledge, experience, logbook, appearance, and interpersonal skills. If you have a chance to get an agency to pay for your training and then pay you to fly an OH-58, that sounds like a win - win scenario to me.

 

We used to let patrol officers fill as needed, but as the aircraft became more complex, with more radios and equipment, you just can't do it anymore. We put our TFO's through a ground school, then about four weeks of training in the aircraft, before they can start working shifts. We keep a trained cadre of part-time TFO's, and even then when you open a spot up and test for the position, you don't get as many people clamoring for the spot as you would think. There's a variety of reasons, from air sickness (like you said), to officers not wanting to feel disconnected from the call, so they can be hands-on in the street. If we tried to fill the seat with someone who was looking for a better ride than a Crown Vic, and doesn't have a love of flying and a want to put that to use in police work, chances are you are getting a lazy officer who has no idea what they are getting themselves into. We have seen them come, start training, realize it's not just a flying club and never come back.

[Fidelis]

Another 2 cents:

 

My previous life was as a full time law enforcement officer (U.S. Border Patrol, State Trooper, and Sheriff's Deputy). I will not name the county to save the embarassment but it is 2,000 square miles, population several hundred thousand, and ~250 full time officers. Those on here that know me know the agency. I left full time police work specifically to train as a helicopter pilot with no intentions of flying LE. I am now an 800 hour CFI and will soon have my eyes set elsewhere (still not LE).

 

The program I speak of has two helicopters which are both military surplus (Huey and MD500). The Chief Pilot, which I can hardly say with a straight face, is a reserve deputy with zero time "on the street." He is a Vietnam era pilot which apparently makes him worthy of being the Chief Pilot of a LE agency. He has several more successful take-offs than landings, a memorable one putting the MD500 out of use for way too long while they spent 1.5 million on the repairs (you read that correctly).

 

There is also a full-time sergeant (not the Chief Pilot) assigned to the unit. In my first several years with the department I heard about the god awful amounts of money we were spending on the unit. While I worked the busiest area of the county (murders, rapes, robberies, and chases daily) I saw the helicopter in use exactly 2 times. They were 30 minutes late getting to the scene, and useless.

 

With such a great reputation, a deputy (who had worked an admin position ever since I started) applied to be a TFO. He was selected based on who knows what criteria other than he sucked up to the right people. He then got his Private rating through Jerry's Airola's flight school. He hoped to build his time in the MD500 and Huey at taxpayer expense. I left the agency since he got his Private rating but he apparently has done just that. Lots of money for a program that is rarely any benefit to the guys on the street (my former co-workers still tell me how useless they are despite flying slightly more than they used to).

 

A few months ago the newly elected Sheriff, whom I know personally, asked me specifically about what I would do with the flight program. This was a lead off into asking me to become a part of it. My answer was not just no, but hell no.

 

Am I a moron to give up flying an MD500 and Huey at 300 hours of flight time (that's what I had when approached), electing instead to earn measly wages as a flight instructor flying the R-22 hoping to land a job in the gulf at 1000? I guess that depends on who you ask. I still think it was a good choice. If I thought that my input would have had any impact on improving the flight program, I may have made a different choice. But as is the case with many law enforcement flight programs it truly is a good ol' boy system flying around on taxpayer money in substandardly maintained aircraft providing little to no benefit to the cops on the ground that truly need it.

 

I understand that there are huge differences in the programs of various agencies, but to answer your original question..... As a 10 year veteran police officer, commercial helicopter pilot, and flight instructor, I have way more esteem for my students who are busting ass to get through training in hopes of working their way to 1000hrs than I ever would for the majority of law enforcement pilots.

[Fidelis]

To clarify..... there are law enforcement flight programs that I have much admiration for. As I stated in another post, I do like the CBP Air Interdiction Agent position. At least when I worked for the Border Patrol (left in 2000), the pilots were great and the program well respected. I think this had a lot to do with it being a huge agency with federal agent pilots flying..... the requirements are now like 1500 hours (?) just to be considered. That is a whole different ball game. Unfortunately, I think strong programs like that are more the exception than the rule if you look at the quantity of agencies flying helos.

[Darren Hughes]

Am I a moron to give up flying an MD500 and Huey at 300 hours of flight time (that's what I had when approached), electing instead to earn measly wages as a flight instructor flying the R-22 hoping to land a job in the gulf at 1000?

 

Probably a little bit of a moron!! That was a nice opportunity but you will be a better, more reliable and way more knowledge pilot after instructing to a thousand than you would have been getting to your thousand in a LE aviation unit, no matter how good a program they think they have.

 

 

As a 10 year veteran police officer, commercial helicopter pilot, and flight instructor, I have way more esteem for my students who are busting ass to get through training in hopes of working their way to 1000hrs than I ever would for the majority of law enforcement pilots.

 

And that is the general consensus of myself & every civilian(including previous military) pilots that I've ever spoken to about this matter. It's kinda funny to see the little condescending smirk come across most people's faces when you mention the names of the guys we know that fly for XXPD or ------ ------ Sheriff Department after 150 to 200 hours in flight school.

 

Edit for typo; 150 to 300 hours changed to 150 to 200 hours.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Darren Hughes

[airdoggy]

Cowbell,

 

To me, it's funny how these threads, sometimes, go through a metamorphosis (Yeah! I got to use a big word) and change to different topics and side discussions from the original question/statement. Yes, my initial statement is contributing to the metamorphosis(Wooohoooo #2 big word) of this thread, but I promise to put forth a solid effort to answer your question and steer this thread back on topic. Anyways, the evolution of threads is good in some cases and bad in others. In my opinion, this thread has delved into the bad, partially due to the headline itself "other pilots opinions of LE pilots", which leads to biased and "sour grapes" responses.

 

I personally don't think flying for the Sheriff's unit will hurt your chances or be derogatory in any way for future flying jobs. You stated yourself, the Sheriff your with takes training and safety very seriously. To me, that is a positive and a good learning experience that can lead to good safety habits. How can that (good safety habits) be hurtful in your chances of flying for whoever? So what, you are a low time Heli pilot that gained experience in a law enforcement aircraft. Flying is what YOU make of it every minute you fly. You make a statement that you look forward to flying in GOM/Utility to gain experience and become a truly competent and professional pilot. I say, don't wait, be a competent and professional pilot now! You don't have to be a GOM pilot, HEMS pilot, utility pilot, etc etc to be, as you say, "competent and professional". Even if you have 50 hours PIC, you should have the mindset of a professional.

 

There are a lot (a ton) of different law enforcement agencies that have Air Operations programs. Some are better than others, but that also holds true for Flight schools, Utility heli Companies, GOM Companies, Tour companies, etc. Like I said, it is what you make of it. If you are part of a bad program, change it by being a true professional.

 

A lot of law enforcement programs do a lot of different things that can transfer to you a lot of experience that will help in future endeavors. A lot of agencies(big Sheriff's department, Highway Patrol, etc) are multi role and do all sorts of operations, like rescues, hoist, long line, VIP transports, surveillance, fire fighting, search and rescues in the mountains, general law enforcement, MEDEVACS..... This list goes on and on.

 

Some law enforcement agencies, especially the larger ones, have low initial PIC requirements. Sometimes there are some officers that get trained up from private pilot. A lot of times, this is determined by the needs of the department. Just because this happens, does not mean the program is any less professional or competent. If you take a cross section of most large departments you will see a multitude of different pilot career paths and experience. Some members of the program will be military trained with a lot of experience and some military trained with limited experience. Some will be civilian trained with a lot of experience and some civilian trained with little experience. That being said, however, doesn't make one type of pilot better than the other. A couple of years in a good program and experience is gained regardless of where the starting line was.

 

Now to steer this back onto your original question, as to if being a LE pilot is harmful for your future, NO. I know several LE pilots that after retiring, quitting, etc, that have gone on to great flying careers with HEMS, Utility, Etc.

 

Remember, its what YOU make of it.

 

Airdoggy

 

 

FIDELIS-I want to convey this in a nice way, as you seem to be an intelligent person and we share a commonality, so to speak (Semper Fi). It seems you have had a bad experience with your former or current agency, but please don't paint all of law enforcement with such a huge brush (or should I say "Industrial Paint sprayer") This is especially true since you have not been part of their or any LE air ops program. If this isn't true, I stand corrected ahead of time.

 

DARREN HUGHES- Same as what I stated for FIDELIS (above), minus the Semper Fi.

 

All right!!!!!!! Now that I got my first post out of the way, what other topic can I shed my wisdom on. HA HA Have a great day.

[OH58A]

As the CP of an LE unit I will tell you attitude means more than flight hours (to me anyway)

[EAGLE1]

Well said Airdoggy!

 

Pilots come in all shapes sizes and backgrounds. You are only a professional pilot if you conduct yourself as such. It does not matter what other title you put before or after the "pilot". There are good, bad, great, lousy and exceptional pilots in ALL types and titles of flying.

[Fidelis]

FIDELIS-I want to convey this in a nice way, as you seem to be an intelligent person and we share a commonality, so to speak (Semper Fi). It seems you have had a bad experience with your former or current agency, but please don't paint all of law enforcement with such a huge brush (or should I say "Industrial Paint sprayer") This is especially true since you have not been part of their or any LE air ops program. If this isn't true, I stand corrected ahead of time.

 

You missed my follow-up post, which I made thirty minutes after my first. There are LE flight programs that I have much admiration for. I have now stated this at least three times recently in the forums.

 

I have worked for three law enforcement agencies, the smallest being 250 deputies and the largest being the U.S. Border Patrol (thousands of sworn agents), and from the southern border to the northern border. My experience with each, all having their own flight programs, and maintaining professional direct relationships with their respective pilots/TFO's would not likely cause my knowledge to be characterized as limited. I know you're not putting me down Airdog. I'm just clarifying.

 

I will go so far as to paint with an extra giant size industrial paint brush and say that the vast majority of law enforcement flight programs are a huge waste of money with very little critical oversight and undertrained pilots/TFO's. Simply look at how many agencies maintain flight programs, and you will see that many (in fact a majority) are using throwback pieced together helicopters with no actual maintenance program to speak of. This is not necessarily the pilot's fault. The powers that be in a law enforcement agency generally have no more concept of helicopters than a news station manager does of ENG work. The difference is news stations most often contract out their work to real helicopter operators that know what they're doing and can be successful. Law enforcement agencies, not so much.

 

Police departments are simply not good at helicopter programs. It's not what they were designed to do. So if you take a Private rated pilot and train him up through the program to be a 150 hour Commercial pilot, what does he bring to the table to improve the program?

 

I would venture to say that 90% of the helicopter programs are not full time. Even the ones that are tend to fly less than 8 hours a day. When on a call it's a joke to call for the helicopter if it's not already in the air AND close by. In a job where pursuits generally last 3 minutes or less (time one on cops and see if you think a helicopter would made it in time), robbery suspects are gone in moments, etc., the practicality of a helicopter is very limited. LE flying is a novelty, and an expensive one at that. Is it better to put a helicopter in the air at a minimum of $500 per hour if you are lucky or 10 more cops on the street? I bet we'd catch more thugs with 10 more cops on the scene than with one helicopter in the sky.

 

The exception, and this is where I have great admiration for the agencies, is where an agency has the resources to really dedicate a solid full time program and staff it with experienced pilots that have an awareness of what cops on the ground need. Agencies that are busy enough to have the helicopter in the air so that when the next call comes out they are already there. This really limits the number of agencies that can provide such. Realistically, it is the very large cities with a large call volume, or states that utilize the program state wide, including fixed wing for traffic enforcement, etc.

 

To keep us on topic. There are definitely fine officers/pilots that are flying LE missions, in the exact areas of operation that you point out. These men and women are to be respected. There are way too many that are a part of a half-hearted, dim-witted, undertrained, program which should be cause for all to be concerned. This is why many, with full justification, look down on the pilots who fly these programs. In my opinion, with the exceptions noted, is that the majority are worthless and one should take this into account prior to signing up.

[Darren Hughes]

Fidelis, I couldn't have said it better myself. The more units that employ experienced pilots that are actually qualified for these roles the better.

 

Again, slightly off topic and I apologize in advance. I know of at least 1 police department in Cali about a year ago that was looking into using private contractors with an experienced civilian pilot & sworn officers on board. This in my opinion is a much more cost effective and safer way to operate a LE aviation unit, especially for the smaller agencies. Although, admittedly it does bring up other arguments about liability and a host of other stuff with a civilian on board during police operations. But that's for another debate!

 

Ok, I'm done hijacking!!!

[airdoggy]

I have worked for three law enforcement agencies, the smallest being 250 deputies and the largest being the U.S. Border Patrol (thousands of sworn agents), and from the southern border to the northern border. My experience with each, all having their own flight programs, and maintaining professional direct relationships with their respective pilots/TFO's would not likely cause my knowledge to be characterized as limited. I know you're not putting me down Airdog. I'm just clarifying.

 

No, I'm not putting you down and I'm glad you understand that my posts are friendly in nature. I'm glad you have clarified to having professional relationships with pilots and TFOs of the different agencies you have worked for, however, that in itself (along with your aviation experience) does not qualify you to be an expert in the field of LE Air Operations. That would be like a non military civilian saying they have a professional relationship with a US Marine, then relating they know everything about the Marines and how the Marines could do it better. You and I know, from experience, that cannot possibly be the case. Unless you have been a Marine, you can't speak with authority about the Marines. Unless you have poured sweat out in buckets, with a MadMan(Drill Instructor) yelling at you, and obtained the Eagle Globe and Anchor you can't speak with authority on the Marines. I think the same holds true for LE Air Ops. I like your posts and I think you write with conviction, so I'll compromise and characterize your knowledge on LE Air Ops as more than limited.

 

I will go so far as to paint with an extra giant size industrial paint brush and say that the vast majority of law enforcement flight programs are a huge waste of money with very little critical oversight and undertrained pilots/TFO's.

 

This is a very bold statement, but I it doubt can be backed up with hard factual numbers. You have worked for three agencies and have some aviation experience, how can you possibly make such a bold statement as to the majority of LE Air Programs. I know you can't be basing it on things you hear or stuff you have read in forums. If so, that is dangerous.

 

Police departments are simply not good at helicopter programs. It's not what they were designed to do. So if you take a Private rated pilot and train him up through the program to be a 150 hour Commercial pilot, what does he bring to the table to improve the program?

 

It depends on his past experience. If he is a safety minded individual with good ideas and promotes a safety culture that in my book is positive. Maybe he's a great road patrol officer and wants to lead the aviation unit to provide better service to the troops on the ground. Helicopter flying isn't always about the monkey skills of piloting, but a lot more about attitude, aeronautical decision making, situational awareness, and safety. Look at it like this, what does a 5000 (substitute any high time) hour pilot bring to the table to improve a program if they are unsafe or cavalier in their attitude towards safety or lack any experience towards what is happening on the ground.

 

I would venture to say that 90% of the helicopter programs are not full time. Even the ones that are tend to fly less than 8 hours a day. When on a call it's a joke to call for the helicopter if it's not already in the air AND close by. In a job where pursuits generally last 3 minutes or less (time one on cops and see if you think a helicopter would made it in time), robbery suspects are gone in moments, etc., the practicality of a helicopter is very limited. LE flying is a novelty, and an expensive one at that. Is it better to put a helicopter in the air at a minimum of $500 per hour if you are lucky or 10 more cops on the street? I bet we'd catch more thugs with 10 more cops on the scene than with one helicopter in the sky.

 

Here we go again with the bold statements, that can't be backed up with factual numbers. Even, as part of a large agency with several helicopters, you just can't be everywhere at once. Sometimes you are lucky and near the call when it goes out and sometimes your not and have to respond from a distance. Some days it seems like the calls always go down where you are not, but that does not incapacitate the air unit from assisting with the call. I can't count the number of times I've responded to calls from far away (some in excess of 40 minutes) and still caught the suspect. A lot of this boils down to working with the ground troops to establish a perimeter, etc, etc. I like to think of the air asset as a flying patrol car. To say LE flying is a novelty and impractical is lack of education on your part. I can cite case after case of lives saved, criminals caught, missing people found, rescued, etc, due 100% to the air asset overhead or on the ground. Ooohrah! For example, I would like You to tell the aircrews in Modesto California they are just a novelty........If you remember, they landed not too long ago at the scene of a father beating his son to a pulp on a farm road. The TFO took the guy out with a well placed shot. Tragically, the boy still died, but I challenge you to tell the flight crew they are a novelty.

 

As far as whether a city(state, county, whatever) is getting the best bang for the buck there have been studies done indicating a police helicopter is a force multiplier. I'll concede this is widely variable based on several factors; such as type helicopter, crews, size of area, income available, maintenance program etc. This is extremely hard to quantify and some of the abilites of a well trained helicopter program are priceless. Let's say a helicopter crew catches a murder suspect based upon their observations, or saves a life by rescuing an injured hiker, etc.....that stuff is priceless.

 

The exception, and this is where I have great admiration for the agencies, is where an agency has the resources to really dedicate a solid full time program and staff it with experienced pilots that have an awareness of what cops on the ground need. Agencies that are busy enough to have the helicopter in the air so that when the next call comes out they are already there. This really limits the number of agencies that can provide such. Realistically, it is the very large cities with a large call volume, or states that utilize the program state wide, including fixed wing for traffic enforcement, etc.

All right! I agree! I would like to add, however, that some small agencies (depending on management, etc) also have great programs. Size doesn't always matter. What matters is supporting the troops on the ground.

 

To keep us on topic. There are definitely fine officers/pilots that are flying LE missions, in the exact areas of operation that you point out. These men and women are to be respected. There are way too many that are a part of a half-hearted, dim-witted, undertrained, program which should be cause for all to be concerned. This is why many, with full justification, look down on the pilots who fly these programs. In my opinion, with the exceptions noted, is that the majority are worthless and one should take this into account prior to signing up.

This can be said for any facet of helicopter flying. Just insert Utility, GOM, HEMS, Rescue, Fire Fighting, flight instructing in place of "LE" in the above quote and read it again.

 

Law enforcement flying is another facet of aviation. As with ANY other helicopter operation, it takes skill, dedication, aeronautical decision making, and a positive safety attitude. It can be a wonderful and rewarding career. It is all what YOU make of it. One added benefit.......if you lose your medical, you still have a great rewarding job (police officer, trooper, etc) Have a great day.

Edited August 9, 2008 by airdoggy

[EC120AV8R]

Fidelis, I couldn't have said it better myself. The more units that employ experienced pilots that are actually qualified for these roles the better.

 

Again, slightly off topic and I apologize in advance. I know of at least 1 police department in Cali about a year ago that was looking into using private contractors with an experienced civilian pilot & sworn officers on board. This in my opinion is a much more cost effective and safer way to operate a LE aviation unit, especially for the smaller agencies. Although, admittedly it does bring up other arguments about liability and a host of other stuff with a civilian on board during police operations. But that's for another debate!

 

Ok, I'm done hijacking!!!

 

I know of a couple of programs in So. Cal. that use civilian pilots with police TFOs. Guess where the Civilian pilots come from? Almost to the person, they are retired LE pilots who are working a second job in retirement.

 

I detect a great deal of bitterness between Mr. Hughes and Fidelis. Are there mismanaged programs out there? Absolutely. Does that mean the vast majority are that way? Nope. Does it mean an air support program is a waste? Nope. Fidelis you certainly are painting with a broad brush, and having been a ground pounder, and thusly a law enforcement "insider" doesn't make you informed, it makes you ill informed. You can lay out your law enforcement and aviation pedigree and play the "mine's bigger" game all yo want, and it still comes across as sour grapes. Join ALEA, go to an ALEA national conference, or a regoinal safety seminar, actually meet the people you are putting down wholesale. Use your LE background and position as an aviator to visit some programs and meet the people. Not just the (arguably) miniscule group you are so particularly disenchanted with. Do this on the east coast, the west coast, Canada, the UK, wherever you may be fortunate to go. I have. If I were to paint with a broad brush, I would say I have met more men and women that are truly professionals as aviators and officers.

 

ALEA says we are a "profession within a prefession". While true, the right frame of reference is that we are pilots first, officers second.

[airdoggy]

I detect a great deal of bitterness between Mr. Hughes and Fidelis. Are there mismanaged programs out there? Absolutely. Does that mean the vast majority are that way? Nope. Does it mean an air support program is a waste? Nope. Fidelis you certainly are painting with a broad brush, and having been a ground pounder, and thusly a law enforcement "insider" doesn't make you informed, it makes you ill informed. You can lay out your law enforcement and aviation pedigree and play the "mine's bigger" game all yo want, and it still comes across as sour grapes.

 

Well stated! I tried to convey that, but I don't think it came across quite as well as your response. Thanks.

 

ALEA says we are a "profession within a prefession". While true, the right frame of reference is that we are pilots first, officers second.

 

ALEA is an invaluable resource and truly keeps the LE Air Ops industry to a high professional standard. I encourage everyone to go to their website and check it out. You may be amazed at some of the information that can be translated to any helicopter program.

 

Have a great day!

[Darren Hughes]

I detect a great deal of bitterness between Mr. Hughes and Fidelis.

 

I think you're off the mark on that one. No bitterness on this side anyway. Just trying to take part in an intelligent debate based on the title of the topic!

Edited August 8, 2008 by Darren Hughes

[Fidelis]

If there is any bitterness between me and anyone on this forum I can assure you that it is completely one sided. I hold no animosity towards anyone.

 

I do enjoy a lively discussion and believe that it is what the Forums were designed for. My view is no more important than anyone else's, and the fact is that nobody has all of the answers. That's why we are here.... for all to benefit from each other.

 

I really do like this thread. I understand that we are well off topic now but let's learn and discuss.

 

Why do fire departments contract out for helicopters? Why do hospitals contract out for helicopters? Why do news stations contract out for helicopters? Why do oil companies contract out for helicopters? Why do geologists contract out for helicopters?...... and so on and so on. Why do police departments operate their own?

 

I understand that there are some of each of the above that operate their own programs, but that is the exception more than the rule. I simply believe that those industries understand their areas of expertise, and it is not helicopters.

 

I have said for a long time that in order to have a good helicopter program in a LE arena it should be contracted out. For instance, what if instead of having their own program an area contracted out with a company to provide service to all local agencies? What is better, having a helicopter serve a single agency or having a bunch of agencies pay into the program? A number of participating agencies could provide the resources for a well planned and staffed full time program. The helicopter would have a larger call volume with multiple agencies, and the program could demand the best pilots, etc.

 

I know that there are mutual aid agreements in which an agency will help another when air assistance is requested. But I think that it could be done more effectively.

 

By all means. Keep up the discussion. I have a thick skin.

[EC120AV8R]

If there is any bitterness between me and anyone on this forum I can assure you that it is completely one sided. I hold no animosity towards anyone.

 

I do enjoy a lively discussion and believe that it is what the Forums were designed for. My view is no more important than anyone else's, and the fact is that nobody has all of the answers. That's why we are here.... for all to benefit from each other.

 

I really do like this thread. I understand that we are well off topic now but let's learn and discuss.

 

Why do fire departments contract out for helicopters? Why do hospitals contract out for helicopters? Why do news stations contract out for helicopters? Why do oil companies contract out for helicopters? Why do geologists contract out for helicopters?...... and so on and so on. Why do police departments operate their own?

 

I understand that there are some of each of the above that operate their own programs, but that is the exception more than the rule. I simply believe that those industries understand their areas of expertise, and it is not helicopters.

 

I have said for a long time that in order to have a good helicopter program in a LE arena it should be contracted out. For instance, what if instead of having their own program an area contracted out with a company to provide service to all local agencies? What is better, having a helicopter serve a single agency or having a bunch of agencies pay into the program? A number of participating agencies could provide the resources for a well planned and staffed full time program. The helicopter would have a larger call volume with multiple agencies, and the program could demand the best pilots, etc.

 

I know that there are mutual aid agreements in which an agency will help another when air assistance is requested. But I think that it could be done more effectively.

 

By all means. Keep up the discussion. I have a thick skin.

 

From my experience, Fire Departments don't contract out. All the major counties around us that have a program, own their ships and operate their own programs. They do hire pilots from the outside, but they are not contract employees. The Forest Service and Dept. of Forestry do use contract operators during the fire season. At one time every pilot in our unit was "carded" and we provided contract help for big fires in our region (using our police ships and Bambi buckets).

 

Sure it makes sense for ENG and HEMS operators to be contractors, but they are also a profit based entity. Public safety agencies are money consumers not money generators. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

The bottom line, is that your base implication is that LE pilots are somehow less professional, based on the fact that they are not contractors, and actually sworn officers trained to be pilots. It's a silly argument. It would be like looking at the recent accident rate in the HEMS community (on a truly epidemic level) and drawing a conclusion about all HEMS operations. That would be absolutely asinine. As previously stated, there are truly good operations and some not so good in all sectors of the aviation community. I would not indict an entire group of pilots, operators or operations.

 

And you are absolutely correct, in that the chief of police has absolutely no expertise in helicopters. He also has no expertise in SWAT operations, but he has a SWAT team too. Why? Because he selected the right people to run it and ensured that they were properly trained and equipped to handle their assigned mission. That's what is known as effective management.