Flight Sims and Full-downs

[ADRidge]

Due to a temporary illness, I've self-grounded for a while. Doc's got me on some heavy antibiotics that make me a bit dizzy, so I didn't figure it'd be in anyone's interest for me to try to fly.

 

While I'm flying a desk, I've been trying to stay sharp and keep my instincts with Flight Sim X. I'm not exactly wild about FSX or sims in general for VFR practice, although they do have their place in the IFR world.

 

Anyway, has anyone ever tried many full-downs in FSX or X-Plane? How do they compare to the real thing? I've only ever done power-recovery autos. I can get about the same sink rate, and with the engine off I can get a RRPM decay if I do the wrong things. But I'm not sure how close to the real thing they are.

 

I'm sick and bored. Humor me!

Edited August 29, 2008 by ADRidge

[jehh]

Autos are an eyes outside procedure that really are hard to simulate on something like a Fly-It, much less your computer monitor.

 

There are other things FSX is better for, try some VFR cross countries in the detailed areas instead, try VOR navigation as well.

 

What part of Texas are you in? If you're in the Dallas area and haven't played with a Fly-It Sim, come over and give it a try.

[Goldy]

Anyway, has anyone ever tried many full-downs in FSX or X-Plane? How do they compare to the real thing?

 

I do full downs using the FlyIt simulator all the time. In an R22 mode, the rotor decay is not realistic, it happens much faster in the real thing...the others like B47, 44, or a 206 are much closer in that regard..however, one programming glich I dont like at all.....the sim does not distinguish between when you are pulling power and when you are not. So , when collective comes up to cushion your landing (just after the flare), it thinks you are pulling power and it starts yawing....well, when you dont have an engine, thats a bit unrealistic. If they tied the pedal/yaw requirement programming to the manifold pressure instead of the collective position they would eliminate that problem!! But hey, I'm not a programming genius.

 

If you just do power recoveries it will act very realistic...just power off to the ground is where there is a glitch.

 

I like flying the FLy It for instrument simulation, and I think its really valuable for brand new guys trying to learn hovering and the basics....or if you want some cheap flight time!

 

Goldy

Edited August 30, 2008 by Goldy

[bqmassey]

I wish I could answer your question with certainty, but I don't have experience with FSX. I think, though, that it will probably depend a lot on the aircraft. In my experience with X-Plane and FS2004, the accuracy of the sim depends a lot on the aircraft and how dedicated to realism the developers of it are. The stock helicopters in the sims I've flown usually lack realism in the flight-model, but there are some really high quality add-on helicopters for FS2004, FSX, and X-Plane that simulate the aircraft's flight characteristics much more accurately.

 

The Microsoft line of flight simulators uses data tables to generate the flight model. I fly X-Plane which, if you haven't heard of it, is an incredible sim. All of the physics and aerodynamic forces are calculated in real-time. This results in a much smoother, more realistic (in my opinion) flight model.

 

You should check out X-Plane. I'm in Houston. If you're close, you're more than welcome to come see my setup.

 

I'll ask over at a heli sim forum I frequent and see if I can't get a more complete answer for ya.

[ADRidge]

I wish I could answer your question, but I don't have experience with it. I fly X-Plane which, if you haven't heard of it, is an incredible sim. You should check it out. I'm in Houston. If you're close, your more than welcome to come see my setup.

 

I'll ask over at a heli sim forum I frequent and see if I can't get an answer for ya.

 

I've played with the demo version of X-Plane. It seems as touchy as FSX seems unresponsive. Or maybe it's just my joystick setup.

 

I've been thinking about buying X-Plane, but I had some trouble setting up the controls to my liking. Is it just one of those things you have to get in and tweak?

[bqmassey]

I've played with the demo version of X-Plane. It seems as touchy as FSX seems unresponsive. Or maybe it's just my joystick setup.

 

I've been thinking about buying X-Plane, but I had some trouble setting up the controls to my liking. Is it just one of those things you have to get in and tweak?

 

Well. The truth when it comes to desk-flying helicopters is that the off-the-shelf joysticks just aren't adequate. Their travel is much smaller than a real helicopter (think of the distance left/right, forward/aft on your joystick compared to the helos you fly) which makes it much harder. I fly with a Saitek X52 setup. Some that fly helos with the X52 have taken apart the joystick, and added an extension to make the lever longer, giving you more fine control on your side. I'm sure it helps alot, but you still have to deal with the low-resolution pots in the joystick base. To make it worse, off-the-shelf joysticks usually have strong centering springs, which works great for fixed-wing flying, but doesn't really do it for helicopters.

 

The control setups in X-Plane and MSFS are very tweakable. There are settings to make them a little bit easier to fly. Some die-hards won't use these settings, for realisms sake, but it's almost necessary with cheap joystick setups. Personally, I use small amounts of those settings. Hopefully just enough to compensate for the disadvantage of the using small-scale, low resolution controls.

 

So, to answer your question, "yes". You can do a lot of tweaking with the controls in X-Plane. Chances are you had a lot of the stability settings high in MSFS (made them seem unresponsive) and low in X-Plane (making them too responsive).

 

X-Plane's author is constantly updating the application. When you purchase X-Plane, you receive free updates through the rest of that iteration. The current version is XP9. The last version, XP8 had probably a dozen updates before it reaches it's final update at v8.64. XP9 is early in it's life—they're about to release 9.20—and it's a great time to get into it if you're interested.

 

If you are interested in it, consider buying it from X-Plane.org. They're not officially affiliated with X-Plane's developer, but it is a GREAT community with lots of awesome freeware aircraft, scenery, and plug-ins. They're selling XP9 with scenery for the whole world for a pretty reasonable price—the cheapest I've ever seen it—but the price is supposed to go back up soon.

 

I just purchased TrackIR (it's so awesome) to use with X-Plane. I'll make some movies in X-Plane with TrackIR when I receive it this week, if you're interested in seeing X-Plane in action.

 

If you ARE interested in X-Plane, let me know. There are some caveats that you (and anyone else) should be aware of before you buy it. But, if you haven't tried the latest version, I'd recommend downloading the beta and trying it out with these settings. If you've got time, I'd also recommend registering at x-plane.org and downloading the following three great freeware helicopters. You can install and fly them in the demo.

• Bell 47 Pigling
  
• EC-120B Colibri
  
• Hughes H500D
  

FlightLink makes some heavy-duty, full-size helicopter controls. Going that route is the most direct way to any kind of realism in the flight controls, but their setups are NOT cheap.

[Hella Copter]

I've heard FSX doesn't account for the freewheeling of the rotor. In that case the engine RPM would correspond directly to the rotor RPM. Not too great for simulating an autorotation.

 

Full down autos in x-plane 8 and 9 seem to be quite realistic (I have yet to actually do a full down auto in any helicopter). The sim also accounts for high inertia rotors (the 206's rotor spins forever compared to the R22's).

 

One problem I do have with x-plane is the transition out of ETL is unrealistically abrupt.

[bqmassey]

I've heard FSX doesn't account for the freewheeling of the rotor. In that case the engine RPM would correspond directly to the rotor RPM. Not too great for simulating an autorotation.

 

Full down autos in x-plane 8 and 9 seem to be quite realistic (I have yet to actually do a full down auto in any helicopter). The sim also accounts for high inertia rotors (the 206's rotor spins forever compared to the R22's).

 

One problem I do have with x-plane is the transition out of ETL is unrealistically abrupt.

 

What version of XP9 are you running? I know Austin has been making refinements to the helo flight model during XP9. Here is a quote from the updates list on x-plane.com:

 

"Yet more tuning of the propeller/rotor model to rack real helos ever-more-perfectly! A military helo pilot (Brett Sumpter) is flying every X-Plane beta and feeding back info to get the rotor effects just perfect!"

 

The Hughes 500 I linked to in my previous post comes with a plug-in that makes changes in the flight model to the taste of the developers of that particular aircraft. I think they modified the ETL behaviour.

[Mungo5]

Funny you should mention it - last night I bought the Shw. 300CBi from justflight.com to try full down auto's in FSX.

 

I've noticed that it's nothing compared to the real thing - the needles don't split and you can't really roll off whilst lowering as the throttle is linked to the collective.

 

The glide path is only a few degrees of vert. as well so you can't really get any sort of flare going for a power recovery at the bottom.

 

It might just be that I need to tweak a few settings, but so far it's only really useful for IFR and NAV practise.

 

I would agree that X-Plane is the way to go, but the supply of different aircraft is limited, and you really need to invest in a complete set of controls to make it worthwhile. Try the Xplane demo, IIRC it has an S61 and a Robbo I think.

[Hella Copter]

What version of XP9 are you running? I know Austin has been making refinements to the helo flight model during XP9. Here is a quote from the updates list on x-plane.com:

 

"Yet more tuning of the propeller/rotor model to rack real helos ever-more-perfectly! A military helo pilot (Brett Sumpter) is flying every X-Plane beta and feeding back info to get the rotor effects just perfect!"

 

The Hughes 500 I linked to in my previous post comes with a plug-in that makes changes in the flight model to the taste of the developers of that particular aircraft. I think they modified the ETL behaviour.

I thought the plug in just gave a better animation for the rotors. All of that is supposed to be updated

 

I'm not saying its a bad file, in fact its probably the most well made freeware helo there is. I'm just saying that X-plane does have its flaws.

 

I have the demo of XP9 and I own XP 8.64 the 9.2 is supposed to take of the ETL issue. I have no experience with 9.2 last I heard it was still in beta

 

I would agree that X-Plane is the way to go, but the supply of different aircraft is limited, and you really need to invest in a complete set of controls to make it worthwhile. Try the Xplane demo, IIRC it has an S61 and a Robbo I think.

x-plane.org has a ton of aircraft to download (for free), far too many to call it limited. The sim itself comes with 4 helis (R22, S61, 206, 47)

[clay]

x-plane is a pain in the ASS to set up. i got it for fun, and i use the x-52... i gave up on it

[DieselBoy]

What is everyone using for a collective and throttle?