Where is the OW in AROW?

[boardutah]

According to everyone and everywhere, AROW is required to be in the aircraft in order for it to be airworthy to fly. I'm aware where the A (Airworthiness Cert) & R (Registration Cert) requirements are found in the FAR, but where are the O (Operaters Limitations) and W (Weight & Balance) found? Any help? I'm wanting to find where it specifically says O & W are required to be IN THE AIRCRAFT.

[PhotoFlyer]

In the flight manual, a.k.a. RFM or POH. As for weight and balance, it specifically refers to the need to have the current weight and balance info for the aircraft. Operating limitations are usually in chapter 2 of the flight manual. As to the second question, where does it say they are required, I can't remember right off the top of my head which FAR says it so I'll have to research. Hopefully somebody else will chime in.

Edited August 22, 2009 by PhotoFlyer

[slick1537]

91.9 says you must comply with the limitations section of the approved RFM, and it goes further to say one must be in aircraft. You will find that CG limits are in the limitations section and not necessarily in the W&B section, since the regulation says you must comply with the limitations and not necessarily any other section.

 

Not sure where the regulation is that says current W&B info must be in the aircraft.

Edited August 22, 2009 by slick1537

[PhotoFlyer]

Okie dokie, here is what I found.

 

91.9 says you must comply with the limitations in the approved flight manual. Those limitations include maximum weight, lateral CG, and longitudinal CG limitations. In order to comply with the W&B limitations you must be able to calculate the weight and CG of the helicopter. The only way to do this is to have a current W&B record in the aircraft. Since the aircraft has left the factory it has had avionics added, parts changed, and normal weight gain. Yes, aircraft do gain weight as they age. That means that the basic empty weight it left the factory at is no longer the basic empty weight. So without this information it would be impossible to comply with the W&B limitations.

 

I thought there was a reg that specifically said that, but I can't find it. So I could either be mistaken and there is no reg that plainly says that, or I just can't find it.

 

So technically speaking you don't have to have that information in the aircraft, (unless somebody can find the reg) but you do need that information in order to comply with 91.9. That said, if you have that information in the aircraft you can't get in trouble for not complying with 91.9 because you don't have the needed information to show compliance. If that makes sense.

[DanceswithCyclic]

I think this is what you are looking for.

CFR part 27 isn't in the FAR/AIM but I think it is in the FAR/AMT.

Sec. 27.1501

 

General.

 

[(a) Each operating limitation specified in Secs. 27.1503 through 27.1525 and other limitations and information necessary for safe operation, must be established.

( The operating limitations and other information necessary for safe operation must be made available to the crewmembers as prescribed in Secs. 27.1541 through 27.1589.]

 

 

Amdt. 27-14, Eff. 3/1/78

Does not say specifically O & W/B must be in the aircraft, but those items are not available to you as crewmember if forgotten in the Lunch room while flying Mom & Dad to a $240 hamburger.

 

Kevin M.

Edited August 22, 2009 by DanceswithCyclic

[boardutah]

Thanks, that last comment is more what i was looking for. I will have to look into 27.1541 through 27.1589 to see exactly what it says.

 

I'm fully aware of 91.9 and contrary to whats been said by other comments it does NOT specify the Operating Limitations are REQUIRED to be IN THE AIRCRAFT. And as mentioned - that it says you must "comply" with the "O" (like many other regulations we're required to "comply" with - which don't have to be IN THE AIRCRAFT) therefore you can't imply that from this wording.

 

Thanks for the input so far, and if anyone knows more of exactly where it specifies that the O & W must be in the aircraft please chime in.

[Goldy]

Thanks, that last comment is more what i was looking for. I will have to look into 27.1541 through 27.1589 to see exactly what it says.

 

I'm fully aware of 91.9 and contrary to whats been said by other comments it does NOT specify the Operating Limitations are REQUIRED to be IN THE AIRCRAFT. And as mentioned - that it says you must "comply" with the "O" (like many other regulations we're required to "comply" with - which don't have to be IN THE AIRCRAFT) therefore you can't imply that from this wording.

 

Thanks for the input so far, and if anyone knows more of exactly where it specifies that the O & W must be in the aircraft please chime in.

 

It's a bit more generic, but remember the section that says you need to make yourself prepared for a flight? You know, check the weather, NOTAM's, TFR's, how much fuel you have on board, how much fuel you take on....that stuff?(91.103) Well, if you don't have a W&B, you havent done that, and if you were to have an accident the first thing they will look at is the weight loading of the aircraft.

 

I make it easy. I keep a W&B for different max loads and different fuel loads for 3 different aircraft. As long as I am under those figures, I'm set. So, I only have to do a W&B with an unusual event, like taking a 280 pound passenger on board.

 

Goldy

Edited August 22, 2009 by Goldy

[Goldy]

According to everyone and everywhere, AROW is required to be in the aircraft in order for it to be airworthy to fly. I'm aware where the A (Airworthiness Cert) & R (Registration Cert) requirements are found in the FAR, but where are the O (Operaters Limitations) and W (Weight & Balance) found? Any help? I'm wanting to find where it specifically says O & W are required to be IN THE AIRCRAFT.

 

The operators limitations are found in the flight manual, and 91.9.b.1 requires that manual to be in the aircraft. 91.7b requires you to determine that the aircraft is safe for flight, which would include W&B.

 

I'll have to search for a more specific section later.

 

Goldy

[kodoz]

91.9:

( No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—

 

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in §121.141(;

 

§21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

( The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:

 

(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or rotorcraft was type certificated.

 

W&B is part of the Limitations section. (The "Weight and Balance" section of the POH does not require FAA approval.)

[C of G]

91.9:

W&B is part of the Limitations section. (The "Weight and Balance" section of the POH does not require FAA approval.)

 

Part 27 says otherwise as I read it (I may be wrong):

 

 

 

 

Sec. 27.1581

 

General.

 

[(a) Furnishing information. A Rotorcraft Flight Manual must be furnished with each rotorcraft, and it must contain the following:

(1) Information required by Secs. 27.1583 through 27.1589.

(2) Other information that is necessary for safe operation because of design, operating, or handling characteristics.

(b.) Approved information. Each part of the manual listed in Secs. 27.1583 through 27.1589, that is appropriate to the rotorcraft, must be furnished, verified, and approved, and must be segregated, identified, and clearly distinguished from each unapproved part of that manual.

© [Reserved.]

(d) Table of contents. Each Rotorcraft Flight Manual must include a table of contents if the complexity of the manual indicates a need for it.]

 

Sec. 27.1589

 

Loading information.

 

There must be loading instructions for each possible loading condition between the maximum and minimum weights determined under Sec. 27.25 that can result in a center of gravity beyond any extreme prescribed in Sec. 27.27, assuming any probable occupant weights.

 

 

I'm thinking that the loading section is the "Weight and Balance" section as we generally know it. Or do you think otherwise? I can see where there is the caveat for marking the manual clearly to distinguish the unapproved parts, so perhaps there are individual parts of the W&B that are unapproved. Thanks...

[kodoz]

Part 27 says otherwise as I read it (I may be wrong):

 

 

Loading information.

 

There must be loading instructions for each possible loading condition between the maximum and minimum weights determined under Sec. 27.25 that can result in a center of gravity beyond any extreme prescribed in Sec. 27.27, assuming any probable occupant weights.

 

 

I'm thinking that the loading section is the "Weight and Balance" section as we generally know it. Or do you think otherwise? I can see where there is the caveat for marking the manual clearly to distinguish the unapproved parts, so perhaps there are individual parts of the W&B that are unapproved. Thanks...

 

I really don't know, but..."beyond any extreme" sounds like the edges of the CG envelope, which is in part defined by the "maximum and minimum weights", and "each possible loading condition" is the inner portion of the envelope. That's the required part, and it looks like the lat/long envelopes in, for example, the R22 POH Limitations section. The Weight and Balance section has a different set of graphs and tables, and is marked as a section not requiring FAA approval in the front of the POH.

 

Did we ever get a good answer as to whether the CG sheet actually needed to be in the aircraft?

[apiaguy]

Not looking at any books right now but I was taught very clearly in A&P school that the "ARROW" weight and balance sheet must be in the aircraft..

The weight and balance that is current must be on board the aircraft and show the current weight of installed items. It must also have a sample loading of maximum weight configuration (at gross weight) and a minimum loading sample and an example loading that would put the aircraft out of CG. That is how I was taught... I've seen everything else under the sun...

[Gomer Pylot]

The current weight and balance information has to be in the POH/RFM. Any time anything changes, an entry has to be made in it, with a running total for weight, arm, and moment. If you add or remove any equipment, an entry has to be made and signed. Loading schedules are allowed in lieu of actual weight&balance calculations for small single-engine ships. Multi-engine aircraft, operating under Part 135, must have an actual weight and balance calculated for every takeoff. The sheet which details the current empty weight and CG has to be in the aircraft, but not necessarily a sheet showing the calculations for the flight, at least for small single-engine aircraft. For twins, the calculations have to be in writing, or in an electronic flight bag of some sort, which can be printed out at the end of the flight or end of the day.

 

As stated above, the operating limitations must be in the flight manual, and it must be in the aircraft. Center of gravity limits are just a part of the limitations, but are unique as far as I know in that they must be calculated. For most aircraft, the CG limits change with gross weight, and you have to know the operating weight in order to know the fore and aft, and lateral, limits.