PPL flight time requirements

[DaveKnell]

Hi -

 

A question for those who like reading the rules. I was just looking at the PPL(H) requirements in the FARs. They include:

- 20 hours flight training from an instructor

- 10 hours solo flight training

and then, in the specifics:

- 3 hours of cross-country training

- one cross-country night flight

- 3 hours of solo cross-country.

 

As both dual and solo are classified as 'training', it strikes me that an hour's solo cross-country night flight should count as an hour against all three of these requirements. Am I correct? If not, why not?

 

--Dave

[Goldy]

Don't forget you have a 40 hour requirement as well.

 

Can't tell you why they dont write the FAR's a bit more clear, but thats what makes talking to the FSDO so much fun.

 

Also when looking at these requirements, dont forget to use the electronic copy, which is more up to date than the printed one. Changes are made throughout the year, but the FAR's are only printed once a year.

 

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2cd73b5663cf47eb6c0b05c7cb8be30a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.5.1.5&idno=14

Edited April 10, 2011 by Goldy

[DaveKnell]

Hi Goldy -

 

Thanks for that. Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but I'm not sure it's quite as simple as you say - take this snippet:

 

... the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance;

 

-- note that there's no 'and' or anything to imply that these must be disjoint, just a semicolon.

 

Then, a bit further down:

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;

 

I'd read this as 3 hours XC including one 100nm+ flight; should I read it as 3 hours XC plus a further 100nm flight?

 

I imagine that the intention was to specify 3 hours XC plus a night XC flight for the first bit, and 3 hours solo XC including one 100nm flight for the second. In which case the rules are pretty ambiguously written, as the forms of the first and second snippets are basically the same.

 

And thank you very much indeed for the pointer to the current electronic copy, which has added 25nm to the solo XC over my (2010 - I have ordered the 2011 one, honest..) FAR/AIM.

 

Cheers --

 

Dave

 

PS - the 40 hour requirement isn't a problem for me..

[Gomer Pylot]

You're more or less right. Flights during the night also satisfy day requirements. If you do three takeoffs and landings in one night, you're also current for day landings. If three hours of cross-country are required, they can be done day or night, except that those done during the day won't satisfy night requirements. Those done at night will satisfy day or total requirements. You could theoretically do your entire training at night, and be perfectly legal to fly during the day, without ever having done it. Flying at night is harder than flying during the day, so it's not surprising that any night flights will satisfy day or total requirements. The reverse is not true, though.

[iChris]

... the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance;

 

-- note that there's no 'and' or anything to imply that these must be disjoint, just a semicolon.

 

Then, a bit further down:

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;

 

I'd read this as 3 hours XC including one 100nm+ flight; should I read it as 3 hours XC plus a further 100nm flight?

 

There're not teaching English in our schools anymore. It amazes me how many pilots can't read and understand the FAR's.

 

Review the usage of the semicolon and the conjunction "and". Also study the way the rules are sectioned and how the paragraphs are formatted.

 

Semicolon Usage - A group of words containing a subject and averb and expressing a complete thought is called a sentence or an independent clause. Sometimes, an independent clause stands alone as a sentence, and sometimes two independent clauses are linked together into what is called a compound sentence. Depending on the circumstances, one of two different punctuation marks can be used between the independent clauses in a compound sentence: a comma or a semicolon. The choice is yours.

 

and – (conjunction)

 

(used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

Edited April 10, 2011 by iChris

[r22butters]

Hi -

 

A question for those who like reading the rules. I was just looking at the PPL(H) requirements in the FARs. They include:

- 20 hours flight training from an instructor

- 10 hours solo flight training

and then, in the specifics:

- 3 hours of cross-country training

- one cross-country night flight

- 3 hours of solo cross-country.

 

As both dual and solo are classified as 'training', it strikes me that an hour's solo cross-country night flight should count as an hour against all three of these requirements. Am I correct? If not, why not?

 

--Dave

 

The 3hrs cross country in 61.109©(1), generally means 'dual' training, therefore a solo cc would not count for that requirement.

 

61.109©(4), states what the 'solo' time must be. There is no night solo requirement, but if you did one, it would only count for the 3hrs cc time required by ©(4)(i). The 100nm cc is part of that 3hrs cc.

 

You would also need an endorsement to fly 'solo' at night, which means doing the flight 'dual' first, so your CFI can determine whether or not you can handle it? And of course find your way back home?

 

OK, why did this program put the'c' in a circle?

Edited April 10, 2011 by r22butters

[DaveKnell]

There're not teaching English in our schools anymore. It amazes me how many pilots can't read and understand the FAR's.

 

That should, of course, be FARs.

 

--Dave

Edited April 11, 2011 by DaveKnell

[SBuzzkill]

And "there're" should be they're

Edited April 11, 2011 by SBuzzkill

[iChris]

That should, of course, be FARs.

 

--Dave

 

And "there're" should be they're

 

Spell checkers and grammar checkers anonymous, thanks for the correction.

 

"They're not teaching English in our schools anymore. It amazes me how many pilots can't read and understand the FARs."

Edited April 12, 2011 by iChris

[DaveKnell]

Spell checkers and grammar checkers anonymous, thanks for the correction.

 

A pleasure although, as I post under my real name, I'm hardly anonymous - click the link if you're unclear on the meaning of the word.

 

Anyway, maybe you'd like to clarify for me what the regulations which I've posted above mean?

 

--Dave

[iChris]

Anyway, maybe you'd like to clarify for me what the regulations which I've posted above mean?

 

--Dave

 

I assume you’re referring to 61.109 [c]. What specifically are you looking for?

 

1. The rule outlines that a minimum of 40 hours of flight time is required for a PPH. The 40 hours must include a minimum 20 hours of dual flight training in a helicopter and a minimum of 10 hours solo flight in a helicopter.

 

2. Paragraphs c) (1), c) (2), and c) (3) outline what must be included in your minimum 20 hours of dual flight training. Paragraph c) (2) is the only night requirement.

 

3. Paragraph c (4) outlines what your minimum 10 hours of solo flight training in a helicopter must consist of.

===========================================================

 

61.109 Aeronautical experience.

 

c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b(3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

 

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—

 

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

 

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

 

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

 

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

 

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

 

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2011 by iChris

[SBuzzkill]

Spell checkers and grammar checkers anonymous, thanks for the correction.

 

"They're not teaching English in our schools anymore. It amazes me how many pilots can't read and understand the FARs."

 

Just razzing on you! It was too ironic to let pass by unannounced.

[DaveKnell]

Thank you.

 

But explain this to me, if you'd be so kind. Both dual and solo are "training" in c); some training is specified as being "from an authorized instructor" c)(3), some solo c)(4), some unspecified c)(1,2).

 

So my contention is that one 100nm cross-country solo night flight* with a number of landings could conceivably count towards c)(1), c)(2), c)(2)(i and ii), c)(4) and c)(4)(i-iii).

 

I'm not quite sure where you get your assertion that the training to satisfy c)(1) and c)(2) has to be dual comes from, as I can't find that in the regulations. Could you help me out?

 

Thanks --

 

Dave

 

* I have no intention of embarking on such a thing.

[iChris]

Thank you.

 

Q1. But explain this to me, if you'd be so kind. Both dual and solo are "training" in c); some training is specified as being "from an authorized instructor" c)(3), some solo c)(4), some unspecified c)(1,2).

Q2. So my contention is that one 100nm cross-country solo night flight* with a number of landings could conceivably count towards c)(1), c)(2), c)(2)(i and ii), c)(4) and c)(4)(i-iii).

Q3. I'm not quite sure where you get your assertion that the training to satisfy c)(1) and c)(2) has to be dual comes from, as I can't find that in the regulations. Could you help me out?

Thanks --

 

Dave

 

Answers to your three part question:

 

A1.... Both dual and solo are training, but what type training? FAR 61.109 c) specifies two types of training that must be logged: 1. Flight training (dual) from an authorized instructor and 2. Solo flight training (solo). The training referred to in c)(1 & 2) is flight training (dual) from an authorized instructor (in no way unspecified).

 

Flight training is defined in section 61.1 b (6) as "training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft

 

"40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b(3) of this part, and the training must include at least"

 

 

A2.... Any solo flight (day or night) would only count toward c) (4) and your overall flight time. All the rest is defined as requiring flight training.

A3..... Again, the assertion is stated in 61.109 c) and defined under 61.1 applicability and definitions.

 

"40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b(3) of this part, and the training must include at least"

 

Flight training is defined in section 61.1 b (6) as "training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

Edited April 13, 2011 by iChris

[r22butters]

Look at it this way; You have to learn how to fly cross country, before you can do on your own.

 

The FAA is saying that it takes 3hrs to do that, therefore those 3hrs must be 'dual'.

 

If 'solo' flights in section (4), could count for the flights in section (1), then there would be no reason to have different sections.

 

Remember, the summery at the top, says 20hrs from an authorized instructor, and 10hrs solo flight training(which means you have to practice the maneuvers in 61.107b(3), as opposed to just flying around for fun, that's why it says 'training').

 

That 20hrs from an authorized instructor is broken down in sections 1-3. Then section (4), referes to solo.

 

It all comes down to, you have to do 6hrs cross country, 3hrs dual, and 3hrs solo.

Edited April 13, 2011 by r22butters

[arotrhd]

If we're going to be technical and concerned with semantics, we should preempt the conversation by stating 14CFR61.XXX, as in...NOT FAR's, an acronym which also is used for "Federal Acquisition Regulations".

 

14 CFR (Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations): An index of rules that directly relate to aeronautics and space, and is divided into 5 volumes. The first 3 volumes are arranged to comprise Chapter 1, which establishes codes that the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) is responsible for enforcing. A Chapter is divided into subchapters which group together related Parts, also referred to as FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations).

 

Chapter 1 is comprised of Parts 1 – 199 and is assembled into 14 Subchapters; each Part is further subdivided into Sections concerning specific rules and regulations.

 

 

-WATCH FOR THE PATTERNS, WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[DaveKnell]

Flight training is defined in section 61.1 b (6) as "training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

 

Thank you! That's the bit I was missing, and which makes sense of the rules as written. I'm more used to reading legal docs where things which are defined elsewhere are, by convention, capitalised (e.g. 'Flight Training') for clarity. Now all I've to do is to wrap my head around the apparently oxymoronic 'solo flight training' and tautological 'flight training with an authorized instructor' mentioned in the requirements, and I'm all set.

 

More seriously, thanks again for pointing out the definition. Much appreciated.

 

--Dave

 

NB - I'm a Brit and our -ise/-ize conventions are different to the American ones, just in case there's another outbreak of pedantry around the corner..

 

And one postscript - for you CFIs, I think there's the basis of a good stage check question to send your students scuttling into their FAR/AIMs somewhere in this discussion.

Edited April 13, 2011 by DaveKnell

[Goldy]

NB - I'm a Brit

 

We will try not to hold that against you!

 

Legitimate question, in fact this exact subject of a CC flight (with instructor) almost bit me in the ass once.