pairoboots Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 would like opinions on choosing enstrom 280 fx over r 44 for personal ship. i have most of time in r 22 & r 44 some in 300c. recently flew 280 c liked it a lot after i quit fighting controls. i like the room & adjustable pedals & the ship feels so stable. i also like that heavy rotor system, makes me feel better & safer. i like the r 44 & its hydrolics & speed, but the little extra speed is not a concern for me. have located mechanics willing to go to factory enstrom training as i do not live near any enstrom service center. prices on new ships are close. considering, safety,reliability,maintenance is the 280 fx a good choice over r 44. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flingwing206 Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 The 280FX is a little slower and thirstier then the R44, but as you surmised, more stable with a higher-inertia fully articulated rotor system. The R44 will most likely be slightly more day-to-day problem free, but watch out, Robinson will get their time and money from you - the cost of parts and accessories will balance out any initial difference in purchase price, especially when you factor in the dreaded overhaul. Of course, if you ever want to carry three passengers, then the R44 is the only choice, but outside of that (having plenty time in both) I would choose the 280FX in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted March 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Thanks for the reply I only plan on one passenger most of the time so the back seats of the r 44 are not needed for my use. I plan on going to New Hampshire and getting some good flight time & training in the 280fx . I will leave in about 2 months and stay for 2 weeks and hope I come away with a great experience that sells me on the 280 fx. I have also looked at accident reports especially engine failures! I found that most of the ones I could find were fuel starvation and even then most landed with little or no damage to the ship!, and no injuries! Again thanks for the reply and more opinions from out there are welcome! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spw1177 Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 I agree with Flingwing, I have flown both the Enstrom and the Robbie and if I had the money I would buy the Enstrom. All helicopters are expensive to maintain and operate, but in the long run I think the cost will be very similar between the two. I just think the Enstrom is a much safer and much better flying helicopter. And I have spent a lot of time around the Robinsons, although they are pretty reliable, they are not as maintence-free as some would have you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ga. Chopper Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 pairoboots, I agree with you and flingwing206. Both the 280Fx and the R-44 have their pros and cons and I think these are the two best piston powered helicopters that are currently available. The useful load on both helicopters is about the same, although I would be careful about putting 4 people in the R-44 especially at high density altitude. With the turbo-charged Enstrom, you can still pull full mainfold pressure above 12,000 ft density altitude which should provide for a higher "Hover out of ground effect" altitude. I have owned and operated an Enstrom F-28C-2 for the past 5 years and I would say that your major concern for the 280FX is to ensure you get proper maintenace, especially since there are less available service centers than there are with Robinsons. I am a factory trained Enstrom mechanic and perform all of my own maintenance, I have noticed cost of a annual inspection is about the same on both ships, but Enstrom has the cost advantage on compariable replacement parts. For example, a set of 3 new main rotor blades from Enstrom are cheaper than a set of 2 main rotor baldes on a R-22, plus there are no hour life limit or calender life limit for the Enstrom blades since they are "on-condition". A few of my friends at the local airport have R-44's and we have swapped out time in each others ships. I would say that the initial transition to the R-44 might be a little easier since it has a governor and hydraulically powered controls versus the Enstrom's throttle correlator and cyclic electric trim system. But I think the Enstrom has better "hands off" stability, especially once you have learned to properly trim the cyclic. Both ships have high-inertia rotor systems but the Enstrom is a bit higher and I think that is one reason why there are generally very few injuries or fatalities when one goes down. Enstroms have about the best safety record in it's class. As far as looks are concerned, I think the 280 FX is the best looking piston-powered helicopter made, it looks more like a turbine-powered ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Question: why would you choose the 280FX over the F28? Other than sheet metal, the two ships seem very similar. However, I've never seen either of them up close, let alone fly one. It's hard to find an Enstrom in my neck of the woods. When you look at photographs, that front "bench" seat in the F28 looks like its about 8 feet across. Is it similar in the 280FX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 IgorS I like the 280 fx over the f 28f simply for cosmetic reasons, I like the way it looks. The f 28 f is a fine looking ship also, and some I am sure prefer its looks over the 280fx. I think the f28f is a little roomier than the 280fx, but not by much. I am 6’4” and the adjustable pedals in the Enstrom are a great relief after flying the R22 & R44. In the Enstrom I can be comfortable flying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helidoc Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 I don't have any time in the R44 but did own and fly a 280FX for a couple of years and trained in an R22. The 280 feels much more solid and comfortable than the 22, kind of like going from a VW to a Cadillac. I am sure the 44 is probably has a more solid feel as well but it still has a narrower cabin than the Enstrom. You should also consider that your flying needs may change. All in all I was happy with my 280 but there were times I wanted to take just one more person along and couldn't so thats why I moved upto a 480. I really considered the R44 first because of the economics but the Enstrom won out based upon performance factors at altitude, cabin size, turbine power and the higher inertia rotor. It really flys similar to a 280 which I think is probably the best 2 or 3 passenger piston helicopter around. By the way, the F28 does have more room and better visability than the 280 so that is why the police like it. It is about I think 7 knots slower than the 280 and most like the lines of the 280 better. Running gear is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? Helidoc thanks for reply. Is there anything in particular that stands out about the 280fx maintenance wise. Other than the fact that you needed more space it sounds like you were fairly satisfied with it. Was it usually ready to go when you were. The R44 11 is a nice ship and will be available I think next year with air-conditioning. That might be nice in a hot climate. My main concern with the R44 is its rotor system. I am not concerned so much that it’s a two bladed teetering system as I am with its lack of weight to some degree. I also read of blade problems which doesn’t instill great confidence. I went to the Robinson safety course a while back and found it very informative. I would like to go again for I am sure every time one takes the course more is learned. After the classes I got my flight in an R44 11 with instructor . I like the R44 and have flown it several hours it feels much more substantial than R22. Like the hydraulics and the way it handles in fact the main thing that keeps it from being my first choice is its rotor system. At this time I am waiting for information that will make me feel confident in its rotor system. I say the 280 is my first choice, but if I could I would make it the 480B it is a beautiful ship. Also did you get air in yours and how does the autorotation compare to the 280? t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helidoc Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Maintainance on the 280, even though it was a low time ship (sold it with about 400 hours TTSN), wasn't cheap. This may have been since it wasn't flown enough. During its life up to my ownership the main expenses were replacement of the rotor elastomerics x 2, replacement of 3 of the flapping bearings, replacement of the tail rotor bearings, and rebuilding of the swash plate. Turbo had been replaced by the previous owner at about 80 hours but other than that most of the expenses were the usual oil changes and annuals. Oh, I also replaced the starter and flex packs for the tail rotor. I'll have to say that at the annuals the mechanics usually found something though that needed attention or that I felt should be looked into. My guess is that it cost me about $20000 during the couple of years I had it to fly (fuel, maintainance, insurance, ect.) I only fly about 80 hours per year. If one flew more often I suspect the cost per hour would be cheaper and I am also not one to cut corners - maybe the other extreme. I did not get air in mine---its a $30000 option and the 480 probably drops a little quicker than the 280 did in autos. It was generally pretty reliable. Another thing to consider is speed. I do a fair amount of x-country flying and the 480 gets there significantly quicker, as I would expect the R44 to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted April 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Another point in favor of the 280fx is the new elastomeric dampers and a throttle governor. I was told by factory personnel that the new dampers will most likely be available late fall or winter. The RPM governor a little latter. Both of these hopefully will be available for retrofit. Even though the R44 already has that great RPM governor the 280fx as of now is still a consideration for a personal helicopter for myself. With the ongoing improvements to the Enstrom line of helicopters maybe it will be a consideration for others also. I trained in the R22 before the governors came out so I learned throttle control, but have gotten spoiled by its use now days. I look forward to a 280fx with the new dampers and RPM governor. Anyone else think the RPM governor will make the Enstrom piston models more desirable . Thank you for all for your responses and sharing your knowledge, experiences and opinions, it truly does help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilPrice Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Hi pairofboots, I trained in R22s with governors, graduated to R44s and rented for a couple of years. I then decided to buy. I needed 3 seats (2 adults plus small child) so an Enstrom seemed worth a look. I did 5 hours and then bought one. It is an old 28A without even a correlator. Initially I missed the governor but after a few hours it just stopped being an issue and I certainly would not fit one as a retrofit. The governor may help the FX to attract sales and it may help Robbie trained pilots to fly it, but for me, I enjoy RPM control. Its part of flying. So far (3 years in) I am very, very happy with my Enstrom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 It might be old, but it sure looks great. How are your neighbors dealing with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilPrice Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 The neighbours are OK with it. They actually seem to like the fact there is a helicopter in the village. Most of them, their friends and families have had a ride, which is no chore for me as I love taking new people flying. I have been very lucky to get no complaints but I always try to fly considerately to keep the noise down. Also Enstroms, particularly the non turbos, are much quieter than Robbies which helps. When I first got it I went round to all the locals and told them that if they had any problems to let me know. I think if one is co-operative and not arrogant then people respond well. One lady told me that next doors lawn mower is more annoying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted April 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 PhilPrice Thanks You are probably right about the gov. It might increase sales and make Robinson pilots likely to try an Enstrom. If Enstrom ever brings out a lighter weight trainer with the gov. It might be a lot more desirable for new students. Even though I like a gov. I remember when I first started flying the 300 I thought I would miss the gov., but I adjusted fairly quickly and it was not a bother. I hope Enstrom does develop a trainer that will compete in that market. I would like to see more people flying Enstroms. I also agree with IgorS that is a beautiful 28A. Ga.Chopper thanks for your earlier response. I would like to ask you since you’re a Enstrom mechanic and owner what would cause the swash plate to need rebuilding after so few hours. Also I will likely not fly more than 100 hours a year, will this create any special concerns about maintenance. Helidoc Iwould like to ask if you don’t mind about the 20,000 for the two years you had it. It included maintenance, fuel and ins.. I was wondering if the ins. Was just liability? Since ins. Is a big factor I thought that I might go to just liability after the first year. I would also like opinions from PhilPrice and Ga. Chopper on using liability ins. only after a year. My thought is that I would be more familiar with The Enstrom and could better chance just using liability and maybe partial hull. .As you have probably already guessed I will most likely go with the Enstrom. I said it earlier and I will say it again, when I look at the Enstrom rotor system it makes me feel better and safer. That along with a solid feel and tail rotor authority. Thanks again, pairoboots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilPrice Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Boots, For the first 3 years I went with comprehensive insurance due to my very low Enstrom hours. The cost was about £3200ish per year ($6000??). This year I may change to 3rd party liability only but I haven't decided yet. Depends on the cost . Despite confidence in my own ability I acknowledge that things may go badly wrong. The previous owner of BDKD had a piece of plastic drainpipe hit the tail rotor which wrote off TR plus gearbox. He didn't see it coming but had full insurance so it was OK. I think you have to take the position that you can afford to take total loss to not have hull insurance. I could stand it financially so I may take the gamble. To answer the question addressed at GAChopper (sorry). Things that kill the swash plate. 1)corrosion due to water ingress and/or infrequent use.2)high stick shake forces due to poor tracking, balancing or mis matched blades.3)poor set up of the shims within the swash plate bearings.4)possibly lubrication failure(not sure about that)there may be other reasons as well. hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helidoc Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 I went with comprehensive insurance for the first year only since I figured it was more likely that I would make a mistake but now get only liability...a personal risk I am willing to take at this time. As for the correlator, I think it will be great. I would have made the upgrade had it been available at the time I had my 280. Mine had a partial mechanical correlator that the earlier models didn't and I remember getting an annual check ride in an earlier model that was nerve racking. I wasn't prepaired for the rpm management until near the end. Personal choice here but to me it is like carburation vrs electronic fuel injection...most of the thie computers do it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilPrice Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 I forgot to mention that I prefer totally manual throttle to the later, rather poor correlator on the 280s. I also run with no throttle friction.I like the control.The 28A as it is makes a reasonable trainer except they are all old and most are past it. If they could loose a few pounds, update it and produce it for a competitive price (Chinese labour?) the R22 could have a serious competitor. I know which I would rather fly. (I still have more Robbie hours than F28) How about it Enstrom? There is probably more money in producing a few 480s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted April 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 Thanks again PhilPrice your information was indeed helpful. I will weigh the insurance decision carefully. You mentioning the pipe hitting the tail rotor reminded me of another incident here locally involving a 300C I believe they were hovering near a hangar and I think it was a burlap sack that got blown into the main rotor system. That misplaced sack caused extensive damage. Those unexpected mishaps can be very costly. Something to seriously consider is if one can take the loss and still buy again. One thing though I have never flown without even a correlator. That would keep me busy for sure, maybe I am spoiled to a correlator also. Helidoc thanks for your input. I have much to consider and more flying to do before a final decision. Hopefully in a few months I can decide. One other thing that former 280FX of yours might have been a good buy for me if it had come on the market latter. It sounds like when you had the ship it was well taken care of and lacked for nothing. Those kind are sometimes hard to find. Thanks and be safepairoboots . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ga. Chopper Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 PhilPrice well stated the issues with the swashplate: 1. Proper tracking. 2. Moisture/corrosion damage if the mast cover is not installed while outside during rain 3. Mechanics properly checking for the need to re-shim the swashplate due to the above items, during 100 hr/ annual inspections. The first year I owned and learned to fly my Enstrom I had full insurance coverage. Since a 100 hours in type, I now only carry liability without hull coverage. Since my ship is 25 years old and is not worth as much as a new one, I can can absorb the cost/loss of the ship. However, I am about to take the CFI check ride and will have to raise my coverage if I decide to instruct. I feel much more confident instructing in an Enstrom than an R-22 or Schweizer 300, it has a higher inertia rotor system, more stability and is built more robust. I personally like the manual throttle better than the correlator, but would like having an electronic governor. I do not like some of the characteristics of the correlator druing initail liftoff and landing. I find the manual throttle easy once you have logged about 4 to 5 hours of takeoffs and landings in the traffic pattern. After I have transitioned thru ETL, I set the climb power from 28 to 30" and never touch it again until entering the approach; the MP and RPM's will stay set for the entire climb and cruise phase of flight. Once you have learned to "hear and feel" for the proper engine and rotor RPM's, and have mastered proper use of the cyclic trim; you are truely part of the machine and a much better helicopter pilot with excellent situational awareness. That's why I think the Enstrom is a better initial trainer than a Robinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted April 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Just would like to say that I am looking foreword to learning to fly the Enstrom. I do like the R22 & the R44 after all I got my private and then the commercial license in the R22. I was extremely lucky to be able to fly pipelines for a while in an R22 that my instructor owned. That was a while back, but was one of the best times ever for me. He lost the contracts and that was that. The rest of my time has been in H269, 300C and the R44. It is my plan to purchase in December the R44 or the Enstrom 280FX so I have the time to compare and decide what is best for my needs. I have waited a few years to be able to do this. Kids are grown only one left at home! Wife says go for it! Cant get better approval than that! Seriously though I am not bashing the Robinsons at all I am just concerned about the rotor system. It may very well be extremely safe system, but the blades if there is a problem I hope its fixed after all are not the R22 & the R44 blades made at the same place? When I get back from the Enstrom training I will still go and fly some in the R44 while waiting on my purchase. Its close by so might as well fly. I have a concern about the rotor system that’s all. It doesn’t mean I wont fly it or buy it. Ga. Chopper good luck on the CFI Sorry everybody about the multiple posts hoped it wouldn’t be noticed! I always wanted to be best at something, but not mistakes on the computer! Thanks again everyone and safe flyingpairoboots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 One thing more that I wanted to say about my final choice of purchase and what will help make that decision for me. I will sometimes have my wife flying with me, so I want to feel that she is safe. I know that all helicopter flights have risks, so that is expected. What I wish to do is to narrow it down, by the two helicopters own merits. The R 44 doesn’t have that bad of a fatal accident rate, but there are some other factors that are bothersome. Main rotor divergence being the most concern. I have looked, as probably most of you have at the NTSB sites and the accidents listed and there causes. This is just one tool that can be used and I do not rely on it alone ( My heart goes out to the families that have lost loved ones, very sad). As I have stated, I sometimes fly the R44 and have always felt safe in it. I think when I said that the rotor system on the Enstrom made me feel safer, that I might have very well been saying that it also makes me feel my loved one is safer. I am sure that some of you that have your own personal helicopters have gone through this process of selection also. The Enstrom has a good safety record also, and I feel I would have a good chance of getting it down safely if an autorotation was needed, but I also feel that way about the R44. When I was flying The R22 I experienced over a period of time several bird avoidance situations or what I thought was. I was never hit by one, but reacted anyway, but not severely. I did not yank the cyclic or go bananas with the collective , so I do wonder, how that loss of main rotor control could happen other ways. I know that most in the R22 seem to happen with an instructor & student on board, but not all that I recall were low timers. I also believe there were a few loss of main rotor control accidents in the R44, I believe they were in Europe, but not sure about this or what were the circumstances. There is a lot of R44s out there now and very few that have experienced loss of main rotor control according to what I read in a report on the website. There are a lot of other things that can happen in a helicopter that are serious, but that would be a very long list. What it all boils down to is that it is a personal helicopter for pleasure and I want the most safety I can get for me and my wife. Right now I lean towards the Enstrom, but still learning. I have some questions about Robinsons, but will post those in another site. I do have one question about the main rotor transmission. In the Enstrom, is it common for the transmission to make metal in small amounts when new? Strange question, but this is what I have heard. Thanks again and fly safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ga. Chopper Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Pairoboots, I have not ever heard of Enstrom transmissions making metal when new, but I don't know everything either. I would check with a couple of Enstrom service centers or the factory just to make sure. If you call the factory ask for Buyard DuPont, he is the Enstrom expert on this topic. When I attended the Enstrom factory maintenace school, that issue was never discussed and my 1980 Enstrom transmission has almost 1200 hours TT without any history of making metal. Best of luck with your choice, IMO both machines are the best piston-powered helicopters currently produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pairoboots Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Thanks again Ga Chopper, I thought that was probably one of the Enstrom myths, but wasn’t sure. I think that if that was a normal thing that they definitely would have brought it up at the factory maintenance course. Like I said, strange question, but thought I would ask anyway. I agree with you that they are probably the two best piston helicopters available. Its going to be a hard choice and one that I will probably be able to make only once, so I better make it count! Happy trails! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.