PhotoFlyer Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 What skills do employers look for (longline, etc) in pilots? Do most employers want slingload experience, or do they prefer to train themselves? What fields should I try to fly in to make myself more employable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Cheers, Bad news dude - any employer out there doesn't want to spend a nickel on you or your training. He wants a "sellable package" that he can plug into a contract, then "launch and forget" until the season is over. Most of the employers will only pay the minimum wage required by the government - not one cent more! Maintenance is also a "minimum", they'll try to get you to not ground the a/c until you get launched - so they can draw the "daily availablity" whether the a/c is flyable or not. The company I fly for is "tight" on the money issue, but they will NOT bust your n*ts if you call the "bullsh*t" card on maintenance. Because of this, I'll be going back for the fifth season with them. If an employer does agree to train you, he'll expect you to be able to long-line in 3 to 5 hours. I couldn't do it, and I doubt if you can. For the safety of the ground crews, please don't b.s. your way into a contract that you can't do! Sling work on fires is VERY stressful - it's NOT a place to learn! Gentle winds,cr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted December 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 What is a typical (average) minimum wage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Cheers, It's about $25/duty hour (that includes about $2 and pennies for benefits). Flight pay is dependant on the company. Some pay $10 /flight hour, others pay more. Ask before you hire on. This fire season was 172 days for me and gross payroll was about $50,000 and we never got out of SoCal. Normal duty days are 9 hours, if you're on a fire then duty time is mostly around 14 hours (max allowed by the FAA). Those days get LONG after the first week. Work schedule is 12 on, 2 off, unless you fly for the Canadians. They rotate 12 and 12. Easier on you, but sure kills the wallet. Genlte winds,cr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted December 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 So to get hired I should have plenty of VR experience. Anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Cheers PhotoFlyer, Do you get the impression you and I are the only ones out here? You also need good people skills, good p. t. - you'll be tasked with landing in some of the hairiest LZs you've ever seen, good managment skills, and be a good judge of winds/weather. You'll need tons of patience and the ability to say "No!" You may also find yourself playing "Dear Abby" for the crew. Now that can be good, but you have to realise that you have no right getting involved with the running of the fire crew. After all you're just another IFC (Independent F*cking Contractor) and your area of expertise is the helicopter - nothing more. I think the most important skill is being able to resist "peer pressure". Just because some other pilot stuck his helicopter onto a knife edged rocky ridge line to off-load or load troops doesn't mean you have to if you consider it to be un-safe. Hope this helps. Gentle winds,cr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canook pilot Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SToL Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Bad news dude - any employer out there doesn't want to spend a nickel on you or your training. What do you mean employers dont want to train? I got a whole hour of long line training before I got cut loose. That was an ugly experience. Didn't break anything though and looking back consider myself damn lucky. stol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted December 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 So basically, I should not apply for the job until I have considerable long line experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Long-lineing is a B*TCH! It took me almost a year of "do a little now, do a little more in a couple of months" before I even had a clue. I didn't drop a load, didn't hurt anyone on the ground, didn't break the machine - but I sure left stains in the seat a couple of times! I don't care how great a "super pilot" you are - 100+ ft of string, left door, unknown winds and a first time load - you're gonna work your *ss off just to not kill yourself! Most employers, the OAS, and most ground crews don't have a clue about what it takes to sling. All they see is the load hitting the ground in the "X". Want a thrill? Let your check pilot try to sling - and not only put a 212 into pylon rock, but also get the rotor system galloping so bad, you reach down, lock your harness and start REALLY praying! I chickened out - I yelled "I GOT IT" and knew I'd just failed the ride. He said thank GOD! Told me he couldn't sling if his life depended on it, and if I EVER let him try again - he'd whoop my *ss. You CAN do it - it just take TIME - something an employeer will never give you enough of. Don't give up! 3 hrs of 133 training - hell - that's "recurrency trainging" for me. Gentle winds,cr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canook pilot Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 I do a fair amount of long lining, but after a few months off I to look like a beginner. I takes alot of time to get to a point were you can place the hook in someones hand and hold it there. But of course we are not aloud to do that. So as long as you can keep the line inside a football field you can long line. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SToL Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 When I first learned to long line up in Alaska, my boss said, "See that little brown spot down there?" I said, "yeah." He said, "I want you to put the load down as close as possible to that spot." As I looked down at my load that was everywhere EXCEPT under the helicopter I said, "I'll be lucky if I get it down anywhere near the state of Alaska." Now I'm good enough I can get it in any given geographical region. i.e, western alsaka, southeastern alaska... you get the idea. SToL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_F Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 HA!!!! I thought I was the only one who had learned the hard way. Thanks guys. Photo, yes its like learning to hover all over again but its a great tool and a lot of fun to boot. Just don't take the job moving $120,000 radio repeater racks at 11000 feet for your first job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil77 Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Don't get me wrong, I have probably the least experience of you all but let me give you my impression: I needed to build some hours; just got the instrument ticket and was a couple of hours short for my commercial (I've just passed it! on a friday the 13th! ) so I decided to take some slingload lessons: 10 hours in a Schweitzer with a 25, 75 and 100' line trying to move tires or chains from a to b, try to put the f*** small thing on a trailer or over a cone (more close to it rather than "over" it). It was very hard and somewhat disappointing or annoying the first hours because like STol mentioned: the load is everywhere exept under the helicopter. After some very stressful minutes I managed to stabelize the helo and to lower the load - but gues what? about a feet away from the target area you'll try to expedite things and this thing will start swinging around as if there is now tomorrow... After a while I managed to fly the load instead of the helicopter, was able not stay not too long in the shaded areas of the height-velocity curve and enjoyed doing this kind of precision flying. I'm far away of thinking I could move an air-condition on a rooftop, but it was a good experience and I got the big picture where to move the helicopter if the load swings violently to one side to stabelize it before I kill the ground crew. By the way... I don't wanna insult anyone nor do I wanna be naive thinking that every operation in the real world is following the rules by the book, but to get my endorsement I had to look through the regs and dicovered, that you need to "demonstrate satisfactory knowledge and skill" to operate under Part 133. Do you guys just operate under a different part of the regs or is it just all about let say "interpretation"? Just curious how s going on the other side of the fence! Cheers, Philip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Cheers Philip, Congrats on you initial long-line training. I'm not sure what question you are asking in your last paragraph. If you'll rephrase it, I'll try to answer it. Gentle winds,Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil77 Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Cheers Philip, Congrats on you initial long-line training. I'm not sure what question you are asking in your last paragraph. If you'll rephrase it, I'll try to answer it. Gentle winds,Russ Sorry that I didn't made myself clear enough...I probably had the feeling that some operators let people here do the job after a training like:"This is the line, this the hook, here is the helicopter and of you go!" or do you have to accomplish any initial rateable training before they let you go and fight fires eg.? Quite funny coincidence: I've just seen some series about firefighters in Oregon on Discovery Channel tonight - more related to the ground crews but still very interesting and awesome nature over there. think I somehow have to find my way to work in the mountains - where/how did you get your training before being OAS cardeable Russ? Thanks for your time! Philip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashresidue Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Cheers Philip, Hang on a minute whileI find my dinosaur hat. OK, got it. I'm sure there are a few operators out there who would do the "there it is" route, but with insurance and the FAA/OAS breathing down their necks, it just isn't possible anymore. Back when seismic was king, too many operators tried to get on the payroll by doing it just that way. Lots of pilots, juggies, and aircraft died. LOTS of headlines, with "pictures at 11". The whole industry got a very bad name. We proved to one and all that helicpoter people weren't capable of policeing our own. Classic example: one crash killed 13 people - 6 inside the helo, seven hanging in a net on a 100' long-line.The Feds hadn't busted us yet for "live loads", now Class D. The a/c was mil. surplus therefore restricted catagory - no passengers allowed. The a/c impacted with the rotors NOT turning - X/M failure due to shoddy maintance. Part of the problem was the operators, but most of it was our (pilots) own fault for being afraid or ashamed of saying NO! A lot of peer pressure back then. Plus, most of us were Nam Vets, and still being alive, we figured we were indistructalbe. We weren't. So now, every operator wants to hire an experienced pilot so he doesn't have to spend the time and money to make you safe. Having a 133 accident will bring the Feds down on the company like bees. The CP will be grilled, the records of EVERY pilot signed off by him will be reviewed for training recieved, and the pilots will be interviewed about everything done by the company. Maintance records will also be checked for accuracy.Major grief for everybody. I,personally, got very lucky. When I moved to the Rockies, the company I went to work for was one ship big. Hiring me doubled his fleet. The owner/CP didn't do long-line and really didn't want to work in that area of helicopters. We learned together - laughing at each others mistakes - and learning from them. Like I said earlier, it took me over a year of "a little now and then a little more later" before I got anywhere near comfortable. My first OAS card was in 1978 and was issued for "aerial predator control, wild life surveys, and animal gathering". By 1981, my card included "long line, aerial ignition, and deep snow", if I remember correctly. When you get close to 1000 hrs, talk to TEMSCO in AK. They may still take low-time pilots, transition them into turbines and put them flying tours. Do a couple of seasons with them, do them a good job and probably you'll get offered utility/longline training and then turned loose on a seasonal utility contract. I flew for them in 89, and they were a very good company and I really enjoyed the people I worked with. Pacific Helicopter Tours, here on Maui has been know to take low time pilots and teach them long-line. But, they want turbine pilots to start with. Damn, I'd forgotten just how long winded this dinosaur hat makes me. Sorry 'bout that. Oh, I forgot - once you can longline, the OAS check ride isn't near as bad as the 135 ride you have to take with the CP. And the neatest thing about fires - it's got it's on wind sock! With a thousand acres burning, ain't no doublt wich way the wind is blowing. Gentle winds,Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i4iq Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Thanks Russ, a great post for us wannabes to read. Enjoyed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil77 Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Thank you very much Russ!I appretiate that you share your memories with us! (even if it takes a dinosaur hat ) its always a pleasure to hear stories out of "the real world" not just the gossip like "somebody heard, somebody else said that something might have happened a couple of years ago". We'll see how it works out, to find the first turbine job and to keep on going... Cheers, Philip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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