VFR-on-top

[svrider]

I was thinking about this the other night, but wasn't able to find any reference to flying above the clouds, except the clearance requirements for VFR-on-top, and basic VFR minimums.

 

What kind of cloud layer can you fly VFR on top of *without* an IFR flight plan and clearance? Scattered, broken, overcast? I know I have read the rules about flying above the clouds before, at least I think I have, but I can't find it now.

 

Why, you may ask, am I curious about this? No, not because I want to fly on top. I was watching the movie "The Incredibles" with my 8 year old cousin, and there was a reference to VFR-on-top, with thick billowy cumulus overcast which they were on top of. So I started thinking, what could you fly on top of without an IFR clearance? Help me out y'all...

 

Thanks

[flingwing206]

...what could you fly on top of without an IFR clearance? Help me out y'all...

 

Thanks

Actually, VFR on top is an IFR clearence - it allows you to cruise at or above an assigned altitude (AIM 5-5-13) - you remain on an IFR flight plan and are responsible for maintaining traffic separation. You also can't do it in Class A airspace.

 

You may be thinking about VFR over the top. As long as you remain at least 1,000' above the clouds (and have the 3 SM or better vis), you are legal. Safety may be another issue - being above a solid cloud deck in a VFR aircraft might bite you hard if there is no hole to descend through when you need to get down.

[svrider]

Ah, "over-the-top" is what I was thinking of, I just couldn't find it for some reason. Probably because it was 11pm and I was tired. Thanks FW

[Flybull]

VFR over the top is legal, but not very smart. Especially in single-engine aircraft with a VFR only rated pilot.

[Gerhardt]

I've flown fixed wing VFR over the top many times when it's cloudy en route but clear at my destination. Never had a problem. I made sure I had plenty of fuel just in case. You have a much better outlook with some sunshine, as opposed to flying under clouds. I'm not sure why, but I would NEVER fly a helicopter VFR over the top. (which is commonly referred to, even if incorrectly, as VFR on top)

 

To answer to the original question though, you did read something about flying VFR over the top. It's allowed during the day but NOT AT NIGHT in the R22 . In the R22 at night you must maintain visual orientation with the ground as per the limitations section of the POH, page 2-8.

[kanedog]

"I've flown fixed wing VFR over the top many times when it's cloudy en route but clear at my destination. Never had a problem. I made sure I had plenty of fuel just in case"

 

What if your engine quit not due to fuel starvation?just wondering if you are ifr rated or sumpin like that or what your plan was.

[Flying Pig]

You'd have to be asking for it doing VFR over the top without an Instrument rating, especially if the layer was so big that just flying around it was not a better option.

[Gerhardt]

good grief. Actually, I saw these comments coming before I posted. If I just happened to be on top when the engine quit I'd let ATC know my predicament (because I'm on flight following) and ask for vectors.

 

Contrary to popular belief, an IR isn't going to save you when an emergency hits. You'd better have some luck and remain calm. A few years ago I had just passed the controls to a good friend of mine, also IR, when we lost our only engine. He's a good pilot when it comes to maneuvers...but when the engine sputtered he froze. I took the controls and worked through the emergency checklist and the engine came back to life around 200 ft agl. It was a huge blow to his ego because he thought he was prepared for everything.

[joker]

Just picking up on a couple of the comments:

 

Nothing wrong with VFR over the top if all the risks involved are properly assessed. Sometimes there is very little risk.

 

being above a solid cloud deck in a VFR aircraft might bite you hard if there is no hole to descend through when you need to get down.

Good point. So it depends on your route, certainty about the weather, range of aircraft, number of engines etc..etc..

 

Especially in single-engine aircraft with a VFR only rated pilot.

a) I have flown in singles over the top many times...admittedly not in a helicopter though due to my belief that I need a better range to cover the possibility that the weather may close in.

Given that the risks are properly assessed (see above), the whole idea is that you maintain VFR, and therefore an instrument rating is not going to make much difference to the operation. Again, I admit that I never did this before I had the IR, but that was because I wasn't flying planes then.)

 

What if your engine quit not due to fuel starvation?

 

Then yes, you would have to make a descent through clouds and an IR would help. Herein lies the concept of risk assessment. As aviators we all accept some risks. It is a personal thing.

 

If I just happened to be on top when the engine quit I'd let ATC know my predicament (because I'm on flight following) and ask for vectors.

 

Huh? If you were single engine helicopter, I think your vectors would be downwards! Again, massive difference depending on the aircraft.

 

So in all, I have no problems with this personally, but it depends very much on the circumstance and the aircraft.

 

Joker

[Gerhardt]

Joker, I applaud your rational explanations. My last post was referring to fixed-wing and an earlier post said I'd never fly a helicopter on top of clouds. Thanks again for not leaving me hanging in the wind thinking I'm way out in left field.