Preferred Police Helo

[Heli-Ops]

To our law enforcement members what are your thoughts on the best law enforcement machine and why. Maybe outline the whys and wherefors that convinced your department to buy what you have.

 

Heli Ops

[EAGLE1]

I think the question is a bit over-simplified.  There are many different “Law Enforcement” missions and so there will be many aircraft better suited to a given role.  Some agencies use their ships exclusively for patrol and surveillance missions, others do fire-fighting and search and rescue.  Obviously you need a different ship for each situation.  For a patrol ship in an urban setting, close to sea level with relatively cool temperatures and the noise issue being a major factor, I vote for an EC120.  For a rural area less concerned with noise that has high temps and high terrain, I like the MD 530F or an A-Star.  If you want search and rescue and maybe some firefighting or EMS, I’ll take an EC135 or an MD902. This does not even take into consideration any budget issues. I guess I can’t really vote for all of them, but you can’t blame a guy for trying!

[Heli-Ops]

What were some of the factors you looked at before buying the EC-120s. Was noise a major factor where you operate or have the public just become oblivious to the law enforcement helicopters now.

 

Heli Ops

[EAGLE1]

There were several factors that infuenenced our desion.  We needed a patrol ship that was cost efficient and very quiet.  Noise is a very big issue in our urban setting.  Our choices were basically between an MD 500E or Eurocopter EC120b. Both the A-Star and the 407 were more ship than we really needed and were too loud.  In the end Eurocopter was more responsive to our concerns and they have a newer, just as capable design.  Our desicion was not easy as we have been long time MD 500 customers.

[Hoist]

It would seem to me the BK117 would be an excelant choice. It flys like a 500 (lierally) but has more room and power. Obviously, cost is a consideration, but having a second engine over a city isn't a bad thing.

Just my opinion.

[EAGLE1]

I would love to fly a Bk-117 or an EC135 or EC145 for that matter.  As with everything else though it comes down to the dollar.  Are 2 engines better than 1 ? In most cases, yes.  We have been operating our single turbines for almost 80,000 hours without an engine failure.  As long as that continues it is a hard sell to the bean counters that the extra engine is manditory. I am with you though,  I'll take the bigger helicopter with the extra engine!

[ChopperCop]

We prefer the MD500E. It is perfect for our patrol mission.

[24Xray]

Observers used to have just the nightsun, FLIR, gyro binoculars and a radio. Nowadays they have that plus MDTs, laps tops, GPS, screens with Thomas Guide and aviation charts, more radios,  shotguns and rifles. Pilots have more aviaonics too and some departments have armored seats and floors. Departments have gone for certain aircraft just to have more room in the cockpit for all the equipment and two 220 lb. cops. For example, some departments that flew the 407 have changed to the Astar just for that reason.

[Heli-Ops]

Was just talking to the guys at Ontario PD in California and they were saying the main reason they moved from a 500E to the Astar B2 was because they were so weight limited on the hot days. With the equipment they needed to carry there was hardly any extra to carry an additional person if needed. Their B2s also make them the first unit in the US to have the new second generation Nite Sun on them.

 

Heli Ops

[Chopperdoc]

I would tend to go for the dual engine approach. I believe it is a requirement in some countries in Europe.

However, with cost being an issue, would the Robby be best bet for dollar?

[HeliFrank]

In Germany all the police units fly twins. They all have been operating BO105s and BK117s for decades now and started replacing them by EC135s, MD 902s and some even by EC145s and you won't believe it by EC155s.

And they all come with the best equipment you can imagine...

It's good to see where your tax dollars (ups, in that case tax Euros) go...

[HeliMark]

Best helicopter? Like Eagle 1 said, it is a compromise.

 

For searches in the mountains, you just can not beat a 500. You can get into small area's, one skids on rock ledges, blowing snow and sand, it just keeps going without complaining. Just can not be that heavy.

 

For normal patrol work, with all the equipment that needs to be carried, an Astar. Lots of room and can carry several passengers also. The 500/Jetranger/Longranger are just too small now for all the equipment. And the 350B2/B3 can handle the hot and high.

 

When my department was looking at new helicopters, for the size we needed, and the ability to work at 7K and 8K with temps at that altitude of 85F and above, it left only the 407 or 350B2/B3. Too cramped in the 407. We did not want a "glass cockpit", which left the 350B2. Will have 12 of them by the end of the year.

[EAGLE1]

HeliMark,

 

From your last post I will guess you work for LASO.  What kind of bribe is needed for a hop in the H-3?  Steak dinner for the crew delivered?  I would trade for a ride in my EC120 but somehow I don't think it is a very even trade.....

 

Are they sending you to Texas for training, or are they sending a factory pilot out to you?  If you go to Texas make Larry buy you dinner at the Salt Grass.  

 

Jeff

[HeliMark]

Eagle1, talk about it being hard to get a ride. It's being in the "public utility" category, means if ya ain't a crew member, forget it! I was flying it last year for several months, what a great ship to fly. Lots of power, and damn fast. You have to watch the airspeed or you will blow by the red line without realizing it with power still left over.

 

All the pilots have already gone to Texas for the factory training last month. And I can name several other places that were nice places after a day of studying...

 

We have one already online with all the gizmo's (all the first six by August, next six by the end of the year) and starting in several weeks we will do refresher courses for all the pilots. The factory course is okay as bare minimum, but we do a much more intense course ourselves. Which of course means at least 40-50+ full touchdown auto's  

 

Let me tell ya, it will be nice when I get the Astar, as they took my 500E away and gave me a 520N. It was 98F a couple of days ago, and I could not even pull max continuos tourque without temping out!

[EAGLE1]

Yes, there are quite a few other very fine "establishments" there in Texas....

 

We had a 520N for about a year and a half.  It was our newest helicopter and the first one we sold when we switched to the EC120's.  I can remember a flight to Rialto for NTDA's with Western Ops and I was temping out max conts and I was showing a whole 87 knots indicated.  The other problem we had was with coking.  Before each start we had to "hand prop" the main rotor backwards a few turns to break it free.  They tried everything to solve the problem but it never fully went away.  Have patience, you will be back in a real helicopter soon enough!

 

Yes the factory course is basic.  Looking back I can't believe I flew an EC120 back from Dallas to John Wayne "green" with a bare minimum ferry pack after only 3 hours of flight time in it.  Good thing everything kept turning or it could have been ugly.  We also did our own refresher before flying patrol.

 

As for the H-3 I was thinking of a "cross training" mission for search and rescue, or something "homeland defense" related making me a required crew member.....  Hey I gotta try.

 

Fly Safe,

Jeff

[MightyGem]

Yes, here in the UK we have to have two engines to fly over built up areas. Admittedly single engine ships are very reliable, but you only need one engine failure to mess up your whole day.

 

In the past UK forces have usually flown Bo105s and Twinstars, and we have one force with a BK117. The Twinstars and 105 are slowly being replaced by 135s and 902s. We've had a 135 for nearly a year and apart from the continuing ARIS pot problems it's a good aircraft. From people who have flown both the 135 and 902, they rate the 135 as the better one.

[Heli-Ops]

Mighty Gem - How are the 902 operators getting on when it comes to support from the factory for spare parts etc. I have heard a lot of horror stories about delays being months, not days for parts.

 

Heli Ops

[MightyGem]

Yes, I believe that there were problems in the beginning. Our neighbouring force uses a 902 and they are occasionally down for a few days for a tech/spares problem. How widespread this is I'm not sure though.

[Heli-Ops]

It actually seems to be quite a big problem for those that operate MD products. I know a few agencies that have got so fed up with trying to get support that they have got rid of their MD products and gone over to Eurocopter.

 

Its a shame because they make a great aircraft in my opinion but its their customer support, or lack of it, that causes the problems. Instead of trying to fix their problems all they seem to do is deny that there are any problems.

 

How have you found Eurocopter to deal with, or I presume you would deal through McAlpine there. I understand they are pretty good.

 

Heli Ops

[MightyGem]

All Police pilots in the UK are civilians. The majority are ex-military, and the majority of our Police Forces use pilots supplied by an outside contractor. I work for a company that is part of McAlpine Helicopters, so I think they are pretty good.

 

My Force also uses McAlpines for maintenace as well. The set up is pretty good. The main base is at Oxford which is just over an hours flying time. The aircraft goes there for 400/800hr services. All other work(50/100hrs) is done at a regional base about 15 mins away. There are 4/5 fulltime engineers there with a duty man on call at night and weekends who can usually be on site within an hour should we need him.

[Heloplt]

We have 407's and OH-6's, our E model went as a trade-in for the first 407. Really have not had any problems with them in over 3,500 hours of flying. Yep-they are not for the claustrophobic if you want to sit up front, but the power, speed, and smoothness makes one forget about that. The 120 is a nice ship, but it doesn't have enough upstairs for crew, cameras, fuel, and high temps. Don't try a rescue or strapping a couple of beefy swat guys outside unless you want to sweat those gauges. The A-star is a beauty, but I wasn't overly impressed with the visibility over/around that huge instrument panel. Now the 130 is another story entirely, there is a ship with visibility! The 130 got the highest marks from the flight crews when we were initially shopping for an upgrade. Nice to fly, good flight control position for the pilot and very good visibility. But alas the good folks signing the checks liked the club seating in the 407 over the EC bench. Tried the Augusta Koala as well, if money was no object we might have... The Koala is very fast, smooth, and has more power than it knows what to do with. That PT6 upstairs is a proven engine, but it surely is not the quietest kid on the block. It is another helo that will march right on through Vne without even breaking a sweat. The twins would be great as added insurance over congested areas, or over water operations but most agencies have a hard time meeting the initial price and then the operating costs would be prohibitive for day to day flying. In the end it usually comes down to how much money the agency is willing to spend, so you end up with a compromise. That being said I will say again that we are very happy with the Bell 407's.

[andyshanks]

Can't let Mightygem get away with that....We also meet pilots who fly both the 902 and the 135...and they say they prefer the 902.

Perhaps they are telling us both what we want to hear!!

However, the MD spares issue is a problem.

Any old how, either would do me they are both ab improvement on the 355!!

[jimbo2181]

Is that twin engine piston going to sweep the european market for that reason?

[andyshanks]

"Is that twin engine piston going to sweep the european market for that reason?"

 

Too lateral for me Jimbo, which one are you having a dig at.

(Brain not working...too busy celebrating obscure rugby victory!!)

[MightyGem]

Hi Andy, nice to see you've found your way here.