any irony here ??

[Goldy]

Thanks to Vertical Mag for these two news stories...anyone see any irony here ??

 

First story, environmentalists are suing a heli ski operation in Utah to try and shut them down.

 

Second story, 25 environmentalists are trapped and rescued by helicopter in Hawaii.......maybe we should have them call the guys in Utah ??

 

read on

 

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/188970/4/

 

http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=4762

 

safe flying

 

Goldy

[67november]

Goldy. it would have been interesting if the 2 insedenses(sp?) happened in the same area.

the Utah group did have a member or a supporter of post bogust comments here not too long ago.

 

they will never learn.

[Guest rookie101]

Wait? In the second article it says hickers not enviormentalists. So these were enviormentalists not hickers?

 

BTW, anyone notice that Save Our Canyons is filing the lawsuit agains that Utah helo company? Uh oh, here we go again.....

[brushfire21]

The second article from the Star-Herold in Hawaii, mentioned the hikers were part of the Sierra Club. I have heard from a few sources that consider the Sierra Club an environmental group, but I am not completely sure myself on this topic.

 

Not too backseat drive, but after reading that article, I would have to say the hiking group was ill-prepared for the hike that day....... even though they were "experianced".

 

Just throwing some more fuel on the fire......

[Voluptuary5]

The second article from the Star-Herold in Hawaii, mentioned the hikers were part of the Sierra Club. I have heard from a few sources that consider the Sierra Club an environmental group, but I am not completely sure myself on this topic.

 

The Sierra Club is without question an "environmental group"--trust me, I live in Oregon...

 

Someone should forward all of this on to David Witherspoon and see if he has any comment...

 

-V5

[Goldy]

The Sierra Club is without question an "environmental group"--trust me, I live in Oregon...

 

Someone should forward all of this on to David Witherspoon and see if he has any comment...

 

-V5

 

I would, if I knew who David Witherspoon was !

 

Secondly, I consider myself somewhat of a naturalist. I love the outdoors, I hike long and hard ( either to a GREAT fishing spot or one of many aircraft wreck sites in the National Forest N of LA), and yet, I really dont understand why any organization, limited on funds, would sue not only the operator....but the National Forest Service ! Aren't there other issues out there where the forest service is trying to protect the forest, and could use the help of an environmental group? In this case the FS says they have volumes of impact studies to back up their decision to allow this...seems like these guys need to pick their battles a bit more carefully.

 

Just the opinion of a part time helicopter pilot...

 

OK- I went back and looked at Mr, excuse me, Dr Witherspoons earlier comments..no thanks, dont want to open that can !!

 

Goldy

[HelliBoy]

Heli-Skiing Thread

 

Here's the previous thread on this...I wonder if 'Doc' takes it out on the Emu when his lawsuits fail???

[David Witherspoon]

Boo!

[arotrhd]

Doctor Witherspoon....nice to see another one of your thought provoking and intellectually progressive posts. How's the Emu, by the way?

 

You might want to be careful with the number of posts - credibility might diminish as you move from a Student poster to an ATP, and you obviously recognize the highly regarded international status and power that has been bestowed upon the Vertical Reference website and the members who post here (otherwise, why would you waste your time replying to any of the 'irrelevant comments'? and I know, an excessively long run-on sentence...I fear there will be more ). This type of association could be most damaging to your reputation; What might others think about you when they learn you have such close ties and high status here?

 

Then again, maybe the forum administrators will make you "Honorary Environmental JA", though I'm not sure if "JA" would be confused for a particular individual associated with SSH or the other common variety. You should be the one to choose.

 

Come to think about it, that would be a most entertaining legal match: you and SSH JA after he yanked $60k from your pocket. Have you ever considered another HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS and LUCRATIVE career and then being a witness to a REAL lawsuit? I encourage you to take the extra step and join up with SSH. Heck, ask JA if he will personally be your instructor. It's too bad the two of you are not partnered, with him having all the $$$$, and you the lawsuits...just think of the things that could be done. But he is (well, maybe change that to a WAS) involved with helicopters, so that couldn't really work well.

 

By the way, happy THANKSGIVING! I can't wait for the family prayer to thank GOD we have been blessed with another safe year, we can still fly into the canyons and then get into some FRESH TURKEY and mashies. Oh, and also thanks for your comments that have provided sooo many of us with a nice humor break. Must be nice to live where you do (State of denial?), where the ONLY problem in life is the damn helicopters. I wouldn't mind having only ONE problem in life. Can I move to the neighborhood?

 

You have any plans? You should also thank God; unless you're holding back on us, you haven't needed one of THOSE noisey contraptions to haul you off to a trauma bay in Salt Lake. And then thank us...where else can you get the kind of love we give? Remember who love's ya, baby!

 

-WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[David Witherspoon]

Sorrydude, the Admin has made it clear that I'm not welcome here, so I gotta keep it short.

Fortunately, "Boo" carries as much rational content as your post, so it's no loss.

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

[HelliBoy]

Doc! Hows the Emu/Lawsuit going???? Have you managed to make annother small business owner conduct annother wildly expensive and redundant enviromental impact statement lately???

[David Witherspoon]

Doc! Hows the Emu/Lawsuit going???? Have you managed to make annother small business owner conduct annother wildly expensive and redundant enviromental impact statement lately???

Well, I've actually never managed to do that ... yet.

 

The Forest Service paid for WPG's Environmental Impact Study - from start to finish.

 

Pretty nice of them, eh - other businesses have to cover that cost of doing business for themselves.

Perhaps you'll see a bit of irony in my taxes subsidizing WPG?

 

At least you'll feel better when you write that check to the IRS ... not all welfare is bad, see?

 

 

 

Re: irony - Should be obvious that a person could support the use of helicopters for some purposes, in some places, at some times, without being required to support all uses all the time everywhere.

 

Even if that weren't the case - It should also be obvious that one group of people - a handful of hikers, for example - might share some views with another group - say, a particular environmental group - without being mental clones of each other.

 

 

No, no irony here ... but that wasn't the point, was it. No, the entertainment value was in labeling some group, lumping them with some other group, mischaracterizing both, then dismissing the lot as a bunch of evil idiots and enemies of all that is good and true.

 

 

What sort of people would do such a thing ... well, I read a guy who claims to be a heli-pilot do that ... so all helicopter pilots must be like that ... which means they must all be reactionary simpletons?

[joker]

David Witherspoon,

 

You make a generally fair point in a very diplomatic way. However, I do mainly disagree with many of the 'anti-helicopter' lobbiest, believing that 'most' kick up a fuss without taking the 'larger' picture into account. A great deal of them are simply wanting the industry moved from their backyard to someone elses. Some simply look at helicopters as being those noisy beasts - an easy target.

 

arotrhd,

 

No need to start getting personal. Not quite sure what your post was trying to say.

 

Also it is a little unfair, seeing as Witherspoon has got a close eye on him, based on his previous postings!

 

Everybody,

 

We have been through this already, when these topics came up before. I was rather disappointed to see it brought up again, to see Witherspoon's name again. I was even more disappointed to see arotrhd jump in as he did. It doesn't do anything to impress outsiders with our industry - remember we are Goliath - outsiders like nothing more than to expose our weaknesses. Erratic postings I believe is a weakness.

 

I suppose my request is not to let this thread go out of hand as it did before. At least let's avoid personal posts. Maybe a good discussion can ensue this time round. If not, then let's close the thread now.

 

Food for thought.

 

Joker

[mechanic]

taken from Utah News..

 

 

 

Helicopter skiing in canyons OK'd

 

Associated Press

A Snowbird-based firm can continue to ferry backcountry skiers into the Cottonwood canyons on helicopters, a federal judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge Ted Stewart rejected a challenge on Monday by environmental group Save Our Canyons over a five-year operating permit that was issued for Wasatch Powderbird Guides in 2004. The group does not see helicopter skiing as an acceptable use of Utah's Big and Little Cottonwood canyons.

Save Our Canyons argued the U.S. Forest Service acted in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner when it renewed the helicopter skiing permit, which the company has held for three decades.

The group's lawsuit contended the federal agency did not take a hard look at data analyzing how many skiers and snowshoers use the canyons' backcountry areas.

The group, dedicated to preserving the Wasatch Range, also claimed the Forest Service improperly considered the profitability of Wasatch Powderbird when the permit was up for review.

But Stewart rejected the group's arguments, ruling the Forest Service complied with federal environmental laws.

"The Forest Service took the 'hard look' required, solicited comments and considered a reasonable range of alternatives," he wrote.

"We felt like our analysis was pretty thorough and comprehensive," said Loren Kroenke, Salt Lake District ranger for the Wasatch-Cache National Forest. "We were hopeful going into this, but sometimes you can be surprised."

Save Our Canyons board member David Witherspoon said he was disappointed. He said he was unsure if an appeal would be filed.

Edited November 27, 2006 by mechanic

[flyingseapig]

Here is one that Doc Witherspoon might like. I personally dumped several thousand pounds of JP-5 over a National Forest. Be it I do consider myself a naturalist, and most of it dissipated before it ever reached the surface because it was at such a high altitude. And it wasn't all for fun and games. We had to dump that much fuel to get the aircraft light enough so it would have enough power to conduct a hover and hoist rescue of mountain climbers trapped and injured at 9,800 feet in an old H-3 helicopter. Though I respect the envirionment I still think that human life is worth more than a dropping a little JP-5 on a forest. We also have an agreement teith the National Forest dept that allowed us to go into the national forest at less than FAA altitude limitations to conduct search and rescue operations.

[David Witherspoon]

Thanks for the comment. Many years ago now, an acquaintance of mine was involved in a similar rescue (fallen climber, massive chest injuries), and a similar amount of fuel was dumped onto a Wilderness area by the rescue helicopter (don't recall whether it was Navy or Coast Guard - I wasn't there.)

 

I'm glad we have such rescue abilities in the U.S. I'm sure most of us have faced situations in which "either we do it and there are some impacts, or we simply don't do it." I have. At that point, we weigh the consequences as best we can and decide. I'd side with the Navy in this case; I don't know anyone who wouldn't. I'm glad you go to the trouble of blowing off the fuel at high altitude.

 

I wasn't aware the Navy had a formal agreement with the FAA regarding low-altitude overflights of noise sensitive areas. AFAIK, it's not necessary, since the FAA only makes "recommendations" about it. I suppose both LifeFlight / AirMed (local rescue helicopter services) and WPG have what amounts to such agreements, since they regularly fly low over these areas and the FAA has undoubtedly signed off on their operating permits.