$$$ concern with ground school

[garvey]

Someone had brought it up on a different thread , but I was in want of clarification . I did fixwing and was getting charged for redundant crap that I had just read in the book in a half ass ground school one on one "class " . I am planning on going to HAI and was wondering if any Alum could help me out on this question . I see the the ground school costs a certain amount . So , when I go to the class are we all in class in a group setting and we learn all together !? So rthat is what I pay--am I correct !? No extra hidden charges .

 

I am struggling to come up with the $$$$ so I just want to see if I can head off any .mmmmm , dilemas in the future . Where do I have to watch out about getting porked financially speaking . When I pay for an hour of 300 time am I also going to be charged for conversation after or before . I guess the question would be....when do I start paying for that hour . When the rotor is spinning or we walk out to the helo . I appreciate any input .

 

As long as we are on the subject.............any of you hai there

[HelliBoy]

In my opinion, HAI is pretty fair. the heli and inst. hobbs time starts when the main rotor trans light goes out on a 300. Most of the instructors charge a .2 hr for debrief ($8.00) per flight.

The private ground school is pretty structured. Classes are usually 10-20 people and there arent any hidden costs. Your fixed wing time will help you but its pretty helicopter specific and the redundant training you do get is at a fairly high level so I wouldnt worry about wasting money. As far as the one on one ground goes, if you know your stuff you wont have to spend much time on it, you only need to prove to your instructor that you know it, you cant expect him to take your word for it just 'cuz you're a fixed wing pilot.

HAI is too big to be screwing people over left and right like some schools, they consider their reputation to be important and if you speak to the owner you'll get that impression.

Good Luck!

[bell206b]

sorry about the problems. of course a ground school is not REQUIRED. we do one on one ground that keeps the students level in mind then go out a fly what they learned (the Army has using the teach and fly method for years. Why sit for umpteen days and learn something that you can not remember when you fly . Ground school is a flight schools cash cow. Also nickel and diming is an industry sport. we do charge for real ground and off the HObbs. I could go on. If interested give me a call at 623 935 3388. ask for myself -Bill or Thom.

Flying should be fun and not a bankrupting endeavor. Good luck in whomever you choose. Do your reasearch and compare!!!!

[garvey]

sorry about the problems. of course a ground school is not REQUIRED. we do one on one ground that keeps the students level in mind then go out a fly what they learned (the Army has using the teach and fly method for years. Why sit for umpteen days and learn something that you can not remember when you fly . Ground school is a flight schools cash cow. Also nickel and diming is an industry sport. we do charge for real ground and off the HObbs. I could go on. If interested give me a call at 623 935 3388. ask for myself -Bill or Thom.

Flying should be fun and not a bankrupting endeavor. Good luck in whomever you choose. Do your reasearch and compare!!!!

Just curious.....what school are you!:"? ------Garvey

[bossman]

I would have to disagree with bell206b, some ground school is required.You must make the student familiar with the aircraft, with the local environment he or she will be flying in, with the particular do's and don'ts of the school, and anything else that your insurance or local area requires. This is critical in insuring that all the students are aware of the program. Whether or not you charge for this, is up to the school, but it is required.

bossman

[Jeff]

FAR 61.107, 61.127, and 61.187 state that a person "must receive and log ground and flight training...". So ground training is required. However, I agree that it does not have to be charged for. A flight instructor, like any other professional, should be paid for the time he/she spends with a client. Your lawyer charges for the time he's talking to you, not just when he's working on your case; so why shouldn't a flight instructor get paid?

 

I have a full time job, so when I free-lance instruct I cut a break to my students on ground time. Plus, I charge slightly less per hour to remain competitive as an instructor. I also work part-time for a local airplane flight school. They charge $40/hr for ground, and I get only $15 of that. I can't see raping students' wallets for the entire ground time I spend with them, so I tend to underestimate the ground time, at least for billing purposes.

 

So in summary, a flight instructor should get paid for the entire time spent with the student. But individuals learning to fly don't always have deep pockets, so they should get a break with the ground time. We all know that we won't get rich teaching people how to fly. Save the expensive billing for the dangerous missions: external loads, firefighting, ems, etc.

 

Jeff

[bell206b]

I would have to disagree with bell206b, some ground school is required.You must make the student familiar with the aircraft, with the local environment he or she will be flying in, with the particular do's and don'ts of the school, and anything else that your insurance or local area requires. This is critical in insuring that all the students are aware of the program. Whether or not you charge for this, is up to the school, but it is required.

bossman

 

Bossman, if will note in my post it is stated a ground "school" indicating a formal classroom environment is not required. Never did I state ground "training" was not required. Please if must quote me do so accurately. BTW we do cahrge for ground "TRAINING" of course one on one and by the hour but our students rest assured that it quality time and appropriate for the flight syllabus.

BTW Garvey - I own and operate Gold Coast Helicopters locate at the Glendale, AZ airport.

[nsdqjr]

Bossman, if will note in my post it is stated a ground "school" indicating a formal classroom environment is not required. Never did I state ground "training" was not required. Please if must quote me do so accurately. BTW we do cahrge for ground "TRAINING" of course one on one and by the hour but our students rest assured that it quality time and appropriate for the flight syllabus.

BTW Garvey - I own and operate Gold Coast Helicopters locate at the Glendale, AZ airport.

 

He was quoting you just fine. I would expect an owner of a flight school to be mature enough to avoid arguing semantics on the internet with prospective clients. Pretty unprofessional in my opinion. Take out an add on the TV or Radio instead of fishing in a forum for students.

 

I'm a CFI and here is my take on the ground. I give study assignments to my students that pertain to the next ground school/training lesson that I am going to teach. If the student shows me that he knows the knowledge to MY standard, then we can move on. Bottom line: I won't sign anybody off for ANYTHING unless they meet my own standard. As an instructor, not only do I have the students well being to consider, but I also have my own reputation and standards to look after. If a student fails, it's MY fault because I signed him off. Bottom line: Studying saves money.

[Goldy]

OK, since this is the flight training forum...ie students...and since I was a student pilot once, I also self proclaim my expertise to respond to this post.

 

Garvey- you can do sooooooo much ground training for so little money, its really a shame to spend all your bucks not flying. First, you can self study.....second, you can use free sites on the web like my fav.. www.mywrittenexam.com and third...and really the best...is you can take great aviation courses at many colleges around the country for almost no real dollars. Add into that mix a TON of free FAA safety courses which are offered to all pilots and student pilots alike, and there is a lot of valuable information out there.

 

Use it...save some money, and fly some more !

 

Good luck, Goldy

[bell206b]

He was quoting you just fine. I would expect an owner of a flight school to be mature enough to avoid arguing semantics on the internet with prospective clients. Pretty unprofessional in my opinion. Take out an add on the TV or Radio instead of fishing in a forum for students.

 

I'm a CFI and here is my take on the ground. I give study assignments to my students that pertain to the next ground school/training lesson that I am going to teach. If the student shows me that he knows the knowledge to MY standard, then we can move on. Bottom line: I won't sign anybody off for ANYTHING unless they meet my own standard. As an instructor, not only do I have the students well being to consider, but I also have my own reputation and standards to look after. If a student fails, it's MY fault because I signed him off. Bottom line: Studying saves money.

 

Maturity has nothing to do with it, nor semantics. BTW the last I noticed this forum is named "FLIGHT TRAINING" and since we conduct "flight training" I do believe we meet that criteria. I believe the "client" needs to know the truth, don't you. I was correcting a misquote on my original post. The bottomline alot of students are under the misimpression they have to take a formal classroom type "ground school" which is incorrect. As a CFI you obviously know that. A few schools have managed to turn "ground school" into a cash cow (won't mention them, but we know who they are). Simple math: 20 students paying $250 ($5000) and one CFI @ $20/hr sititng in a classroom for 8 weeks BEFORE he/she even touches an aircraft OR one on one with the student paying $35/hr and the CFI being paid $20/hr and the stundent can apply what he is being taught - something I saw in the FOI, I think. Now which one makes the company the most money? Oh do not forget preflight and postflight. Business is business! A student has a right to know the choices especially with his money. Call me immature, petty, hell even unprofessional - been called alot worde on the internet behind the veil of anonymonity, but I can live with that.

[bossman]

Me thinks there have been nerves tread upon. Bottom line is, ground school is required, you can call it whatever you like. The more study the student does on his or her own, the better. If a student thinks they are being taken advantage of, they should speak out. It's their money.

bossman

[rich00]

Is fixed wing ground a waste of money when you're planning for helo? Or due to cost and availability would it be time/money well spent?

Thanks

[bossman]

Is fixed wing ground a waste of money when you're planning for helo? Or due to cost and availability would it be time/money well spent?

Thanks

 

It depends upon whether or not you are doing written test prep. 80% of this goes both ways. There are helicopter specific areas and fixed wing areas. I don't think that any instruction is a waste. Everyone learns in different ways. You can get a whole day of free ground just sitting around and listening to us old folks hanger fly.

[garvey]

Hey thanks guys.............. did not want to cause an uproar ...but good info from all ! !!!! So when I was doing the fixxed wing stuff I had got the King DVD series . Will studying that stuff .... help me with the FAA written ? I am a little confused on how much is a crossover on the two ...that is fix and helo . Thanks

[Goldy]

Hey thanks guys.............. did not want to cause an uproar ...but good info from all ! !!!! So when I was doing the fixxed wing stuff I had got the King DVD series . Will studying that stuff .... help me with the FAA written ? I am a little confused on how much is a crossover on the two ...that is fix and helo . Thanks

 

 

Garvey- Yes, it all helps. 75-80% of the written is about aviation. Rules, airspace, aerodynamics, etc. The other 20% or so is specific to the aircraft. Remember, there is a pool of questions randomly used, so each written is different.