Had a reality check today...

[FUSE]

Well, I'm here at attending the Robinson Helicopter Safety Course this week. I got to fly today. What a cold hard reality check of where my skills are. I have 150 hours of helicopter time. Only have my private. After today I feel that my skills on emergency maneuvers is probably at what normally folks are at when they are at 75 - 80 hours. I was actually embarrassed during the flight. I'm just sort of ticked that the training I have received so far has not prepared me better. I have been given some mis-information in the past, and I have just plain not been prepared in some maneuvers. I have not even seen some of the maneuvers I was shown today. I now know where I stand and what I need to do. I'm sort of pissed and depressed right now about all of this. I'm so glad that I came here to Robinson and only wish I would have been able to do it sooner...

[james28]

looks like you're on track to getting everything sorted out for safe flying, that's not so depressing. keep your head and keep working hard and you'll do fine. good luck fuse.

[Goldy]

Hey Ray- I'm also in the same class at Robinson....track me down..theres only 3 guys that are 6-5 in the class....I'm the older of the 3 !

 

I'm flying Friday, but remember these guys fly 8 hours a day, and they were the best pilots out there to begin with...I've watched them all week, they do emergency procedures on every flight...no one in the WORLD is as prepared as they are for an emergency.

 

That being said, I'm not looking forward to Friday much, I know my flying will pale compared to theirs...

 

Maybe I'll catch up to you in class tomorrow.

 

Goldy

[Eric Hunt]

Fuse said:

"I'm just sort of ticked that the training I have received so far has not prepared me better."

 

Is this the result of the instructor only having 100 hours more than the student? Barely-educated teaching the uneducated?

[newbie]

most every pilot has strengths and weaknesses. Dont be embarrassed, the important thing is that you recognize your weaknesses, and now you know what areas you need to work. Practice will fix everything.

Hang in there, and fly safe.

 

P.M.

[rotor wing]

Well, I'm here at attending the Robinson Helicopter Safety Course this week. I got to fly today. What a cold hard reality check of where my skills are. I have 150 hours of helicopter time. Only have my private. After today I feel that my skills on emergency maneuvers is probably at what normally folks are at when they are at 75 - 80 hours. I was actually embarrassed during the flight. I'm just sort of ticked that the training I have received so far has not prepared me better. I have been given some mis-information in the past, and I have just plain not been prepared in some maneuvers. I have not even seen some of the maneuvers I was shown today. I now know where I stand and what I need to do. I'm sort of pissed and depressed right now about all of this. I'm so glad that I came here to Robinson and only wish I would have been able to do it sooner...

 

what school are you training at?

[PA Pilot]

Well, I'm here at attending the Robinson Helicopter Safety Course this week. I got to fly today. What a cold hard reality check of where my skills are. I have 150 hours of helicopter time. Only have my private. After today I feel that my skills on emergency maneuvers is probably at what normally folks are at when they are at 75 - 80 hours. I was actually embarrassed during the flight. I'm just sort of ticked that the training I have received so far has not prepared me better. I have been given some mis-information in the past, and I have just plain not been prepared in some maneuvers. I have not even seen some of the maneuvers I was shown today. I now know where I stand and what I need to do. I'm sort of pissed and depressed right now about all of this. I'm so glad that I came here to Robinson and only wish I would have been able to do it sooner...

I did the RHC Safety Course last September with around 200 hours total helicopter time of which about 10 was in R44's and the rest in an R22. I flew an R44 for the course.

 

The maneuvers that I did with my instructor are maneuvers that I've had a number of instructors refuse to do (in fact one instructor made the comment, "Ask to do that at the RHC school -- they'll probably let you do them"). These were autos from an OGE hover and recoveries from a vortex ring state. After a "normal" auto, the RHC instructor gave me a little coaching, and then we did each maneuver two or three times.

 

Now, since I had never had training in either maneuver before, I didn't view the experience as one of my being inadequate -- I viewed it as an opertunity to get some training I had never had before and to learn from it (and just maybe, it might save my bacon some time).

 

The one thing they didn't do at RHC was hydraulics off landings, but maybe they assume that everybody gets that in R44 transition training, and it does take a while to get right the first time (there's only so much they can do in one hour).

[rotor91]

Hey Ray- I'm also in the same class at Robinson....track me down..theres only 3 guys that are 6-5 in the class....I'm the older of the 3 !

 

I'm flying Friday, but remember these guys fly 8 hours a day, and they were the best pilots out there to begin with...I've watched them all week, they do emergency procedures on every flight...no one in the WORLD is as prepared as they are for an emergency.

 

That being said, I'm not looking forward to Friday much, I know my flying will pale compared to theirs...

 

Maybe I'll catch up to you in class tomorrow.

 

Goldy

 

Goldy,

 

Your at the RHC Course? You rat bastard!! Glad to hear you're there! I want to go for the 44, did the 22 in 2001.

 

You can't miss Goldy....he's a real petite flower! Sorry Gold.....I just had too!!

 

Hey did you guys go to Brackett for chow? PM me, and let's something up for Feb.. I might take a client in the 44 with my CFI, trying to get that 30 hours in the 44...only 12 hours left!

 

Goldy, see if they'll let you do an auto at 300, 200, and 100 AGL? The 100 AGL was AWESOME! Your in a power recovery in about 4 seconds!!!!!!!! Settling with Power, he made me hold it for 4-5 seconds, then tried to get out of it......just about 80 degree's nose down...to get out of it! The whole course was just a cool experience!

 

See ya

R91

[newbie]

I did the RHC Safety Course last September with around 200 hours total helicopter time of which about 10 was in R44's and the rest in an R22. I flew an R44 for the course.

 

The maneuvers that I did with my instructor are maneuvers that I've had a number of instructors refuse to do (in fact one instructor made the comment, "Ask to do that at the RHC school -- they'll probably let you do them"). These were autos from an OGE hover and recoveries from a vortex ring state.

 

 

Hey PA Pilot,

 

Your instructor never tought you how to recover from vortex ring state (settling with power)? I dont get it. Did he teach you how to do a steep approach, because it would be imparrative that you know how to get into, and out of vortex ring state. There are so many ways to get into a settling with power situation in a helicopter, and i thought it was as important to be able to recover from settling with power as it is to be able to recover from an engine failure.

 

just my 2 cents worth

 

P.M.

[Goldy]

Newbie- there is settling with power...and then there is the test pilot version, which is Holy Crap ! ..We're dropping like a rock (2000fpm), and I just wet my pants settling with power...Robinson likes to show you the second version.....most CFI's have you start to recover the minute you feel the first shake..

 

Rob- I'm flying tomorrow, assuming the weather doesnt suck too bad. We didnt get together last week as planned...all sorta fell apart and the winds forecast was horrible ! ( actual 10, forecast 50K)..

 

Lets try and get something together..maybe for the first Sat, which is Feb 3, or sooner ?....I'll send out a separate PM so as not to hijack the forum too much..Goldy

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Newbie- there is settling with power...and then there is the test pilot version, which is Holy Crap ! ..We're dropping like a rock (2000fpm), and I just wet my pants settling with power...Robinson likes to show you the second version.....most CFI's have you start to recover the minute you feel the first shake..

 

Rob- I'm flying tomorrow, assuming the weather doesnt suck too bad. We didnt get together last week as planned...all sorta fell apart and the winds forecast was horrible ! ( actual 10, forecast 50K)..

 

Lets try and get something together..maybe for the first Sat, which is Feb 3, or sooner ?....I'll send out a separate PM so as not to hijack the forum too much..Goldy

 

Do not be depressed or pissed off. After all the factory pilots have much more experience in the r-22 than most cfi's. Also they do many manuvers that other cfi's will not do or are not allowed to by the school. I would not want cfi's around the world all doing autos from the different airspeeds and altitude combinations they do at the factory with out a lot more training. That is why pilots go to the facotry to see what the helicopter is truly able to do by some one who has done those manuvers many times and been throughly trained by the factory first.

[PA Pilot]

Hey PA Pilot,

 

Your instructor never tought you how to recover from vortex ring state (settling with power)? I dont get it. Did he teach you how to do a steep approach, because it would be imparrative that you know how to get into, and out of vortex ring state. There are so many ways to get into a settling with power situation in a helicopter, and i thought it was as important to be able to recover from settling with power as it is to be able to recover from an engine failure.

 

just my 2 cents worth

 

P.M.

It's a mostly academic argument. The scenario where vortex ring state is likely to happen just doesn't give you enough altitude to recover -- sort of like a stall-spin on the base to final turn in an airplane. The trick is not to get in that condition in the first place. A steep approach is no different -- if you keep your sink rate slow enough (and/or your airspeed high enough), you can't enter a vortex ring state.

 

To get into a vortex ring state requires all three of the following conditions:

 

1. Airspeed below ETL.

 

2. Some power.

 

3. VS greater than about -300 fpm.

 

If any one of these isn't true, it ain't gonna happen...

[joker]

Agreeing with PA Pilot, I would say the most important thing about SWP is to be able to recognise the onset, and to know and understand the factors that will lead to it.

 

most CFI's have you start to recover the minute you feel the first shake..

Not quite true...maybe yours, but not 'most'.

 

I do think it is important (and not unsafe) to let the effects to develop into more than the incipient shake during demonstration and training. At least enough to show how pulling the collective will just make things worse.

 

Many times during checks I had students 'recovering from ETL'!!!! Quite amusing to watch. That was because they had never really been in VRS to know the differences.

 

With a good altitude, a good and safe demonstration can be done to fully show the effects.

 

I would say though that with the teetering head, it is important not to overcontrol the cyclic for fear of mast bumping. Thus airpseed recovery takes a little longer than on an articulated head.

 

There are other ways to show (more realistically) the onset and effects. Ask your student to descend from 2000' to a point in space (say 1500' above a landmark) as if for a landing, but down wind. As the speed is brought back, SWP is inevitable.

 

I'm glad to hear that you all are having fun at the Factory course. I never got the chance to go. To say that your CFI is inadequate for not demonstrating / teaching some maneuvers is a little unfair. The factory instructors are doing this day-in-day-out. And as mentioned before there are some maneuvers that do not weigh against the risks for Joe-Average instructor to do. Low-G right roll is actually forbidden - makes me wonder how even RHC instructors get authorisation to do that.

 

Just my two cents for the day!

 

Joker

Edited January 12, 2007 by joker

[me shakes fist]

I'm sort of pissed and depressed right now about all of this. I'm so glad that I came here to Robinson and only wish I would have been able to do it sooner...

It would only be depressing if you found this out during an emergency.

 

My instructor has demonstrated an all out vortex ring state. The first time he did that it was pretty eye opening! The heli just starts pitching in random directions while you're falling straight down - and most of that is with the nose down at a steep angle to pick up airspeed. By the time we are out of it, I noticed we just fell 700 feet.

Edited January 12, 2007 by me shakes fist

[FUSE]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm feeling a little better and alot more confident on what I need to do to get to where I want to be. Just have to say. The reason I was embarrased was not because I couldn't do the advanced manuvers, but because I couldn't do the basic manuvers. I had a couple bad habits about my regular flying that no one ever told me I had before. And knowing what they were, such as moving the cyclic around way too much just when flying straight and level I think could have been addressed before. I'm not trying to knock my former instructors too much as I really liked them, just wish I would have had more training instead of time building. To have the instructor there tell me that he was really nervous about me in the beggining was a bad sign IMO. The cool thing is that I know how to fly. I have some bad habits, and need some tweaking on all my manuvers and knowledge. This is easy to obtain since it's not like I'm a zero hour pilot learning or hearing all of this stuff for the first time. You know I have never had the throttle chopped on me? I think I should have been taught that as well... Those were the kind of things that bugged me.

 

I highly recommend this course to anyone flying a Robinson, flight instructor or not. Outstanding course IMO. I will be going back every two years as long as I'm flying them.

[joker]

Fuse,

 

Thanks for your honesty. Your ability to recognise your own limits will be a saviour one day in the future. Problem is you can't know them until you fly with other people! It was only when I became an instructor and flew with people from other schools that I was fully appreciative of the training I got. Even today I draw on that training.

 

As for your instructors - in spite of me saying that to knock them was a little unfair, I am totally surprised that in 150hrs of flying you haven't seen a throttle chop. I thought this was a standard drill in flight training. Chopping the throttle is the best part of instructing!! At the end of a long night cross-country, just as the student was half-way through a radio call to the local field and when he was feeling most lethargic was my favourite time to chop. How else is a pilot meant to learn the 'instinctive' reflex action required to recover the situation.

 

I wonder if there is anyone else out there who is being denied that experience?

 

In your post you mention 'hour building' rather than training. This is possibly a good lesson for others to take home. Sometimes the $25-35 you pay for an instructor in 10 hrs of training is worth much more than putting that towards a couple of extra hours flight time.

 

Joker

[Goldy]

FUSE- I just got back from my flight..to say I was impressed with the pilot is an understatement....we did some great manuevers that I have never seen or heard of before. I too would recommend this course to anyone flying Robbies. Probably should take this class before you even get to solo...but they limit entries to licensed pilots....as far as moving cyclic too much, I tend to move my left leg over near the cyclic, rest my right arm on my right thigh...and during normal flight, I dont move the stick more than 1/4-1/2" in flight.

 

And while I have had many throttle chops ( including one on my private checkride), I had never done a run on landing before (until that same checkride)...I just did the best I could..I knew mentally how to do it..but had never actually skidded along the runway...I guess I did ok, since I got the endorsement!

 

Joker- you do have to keep from over controlling the R22...but in an OGE hover auto..or in SWP, the airflow is coming up from below...so being able to "unload" the rotor and get into a low G situation is all but impossible at that point. So you can push over significantly to get out of SWP...You can push over at zero speeds and not unload the rotor...however, the ships are so damn fast, that the opposite is true": at high speeds you can unload the rotor much easier...and then the low G hazards begin. ( BTW..for any new pilots out there, dont believe me, take the class yourself and go thru the training in the air)

 

Just for the record, they don't allow any of the pilots to demonstrate low G's like the ol'days...only when they are doing a real "test" flight....and I think they know enough now that those flights are gone as well.

 

Enough said- ANYONE flying the R22/44 really needs to go thru this experience.

 

Goldy

Edited January 13, 2007 by Goldy

[Autorotator]

One of the times I went to the safety course (I'm not going to say which time because I would hate to get the instructor in trouble) the instructor I flew with demonstrated low g pushovers to me several times, and let me tell you something, that is an uneasy feeling when you know you have been trained not to do that and also starring at a "LOW G PUSHOVERS PROHIBITED" sticker. Oh by the way just FYI, the faster you are going, the faster the roll. We also did autos from approx 500 agl where we flaired to start the maneuver, lost some altitude, once we intercepted the appropriate angle we nosed it over about 70 - 80 degrees to regain airspeed and finished the maneuver. Those guys are absolutely excelent pilots. Just remember to turn off your cell in class Later.