Total Immersion Training

[FlyNHighNFast]

What is a realistic time period (in weeks) for someone that has completed the knowledge test, prior to logging any actual flight time, to obtain a rotorcraft PPL? I am thinking of taking my 3 weeks of vacation this year and flying every day that weather permits, with the goal of obtaining my helicopter rating in that time period.

 

What are the cons to this approach?

Can it be done if weather, aircraft and instructor availablity is spot on?

 

Thanks,

Marlon

[Goldy]

What is a realistic time period (in weeks) for someone that has completed the knowledge test, prior to logging any actual flight time, to obtain a rotorcraft PPL? I am thinking of taking my 3 weeks of vacation this year and flying every day that weather permits, with the goal of obtaining my helicopter rating in that time period.

 

What are the cons to this approach?

Can it be done if weather, aircraft and instructor availablity is spot on?

 

Thanks,

Marlon

 

 

It is certainly not the norm, and aircraft/CFI availability would be a huge factor..but yes, it has been done before. I know a LASD pilot that got his private in just under 3 weeks start to finish, including the written, then went on to his commercial 3 weeks later...he started with R22's ( doesnt everyone???) and now flies the AStars for the department.

 

Just one suggestion...maybe do some sim time after work before you start flying..might give you a headstart. I would not suggest putting that much pressure on yourself..maybe focus on getting to solo, then do some solo's on weekends..then get your Private checkride.

 

Also, flying low and slow is exactly what you don't want to do !!! Flying high and fast will save your *ss !!

 

Goldy

Edited January 14, 2007 by Goldy

[FlyNHighNFast]

Also, flying low and slow is exactly what you don't want to do !!! Flying high and fast will save your *ss !!

 

Goldy

 

Thanks Goldy, the low and slow is from my fixed wing days, I should have known I was in the wrong type of aircraft, when my favorite thing to do was hang a 182 from the prop and dance with the rudder to keep a wing from dropping during.

 

Marlon

[Gomer Pylot]

I got my original PPL in just under 3 weeks, from absolutely nothing. The (fixed-wing) school had some incentive, since the government money was going to run out just after then. There was a big boondoggle, and by the time they got things straightened out, the fiscal year was just about up. This was long ago and far away, though - Lubbock, TX in 1968, the money from ROTC flight training.

[gft]

Marlon

If you already have a fixed wing ticket you only need 30 hours

flight time for the rotorcraft ppl plus verbal test and check ride.

A distinct possiblity that you could pull it off in three weeks.

I'd tell the school and CFI what I had in mind in advance.

Good luck, have fun.

 

gft

[flyby_heli]

If you already have a fixed wing ticket you only need 30 hours

flight time for the rotorcraft ppl plus verbal test and check ride.

 

I disagree.

 

If you have your fixed wing license you need a minimum of thirteen (13) hours to get your ppl helicopter according to 61.109 ( c ). 10 Hours solo, 3 hours cross country, 3 hours night and 3 hours within 60 days of the checkride.

So if you do a 3 hour night cross country within 60 days of the checkride you can combine all those.

This is not a realistic scenario though, because first you need to learn to fly the helicopter, then you need the solo time and then some polishing of the maneuvers for the checkride.

It can be done in 3 weeks as long as the weather is on your side.

 

Good luck.

[brushfire21]

I am currently trying to get my PPL in a timely fashion as well, and weather seems to be the biggest drawback at this point (excessive wind primarily). Take the time to do it right, your the one responsible for your safety as well as others.

 

Even though you don't have to do the written, there is a large amount of rotorcraft knowledge that is not included with the F/W flying (class g airspace exceptions, S-VFR exceptions, W&B, ground resonance, misc aeronautics and other minor stuff). Meaning you will still have to have some ground school so you can pass your oral is my thinking, which will reduce the amount of time your flying.

 

Also, it seems that the average hours until most people pass the checkride is around 45-50 hours (I have heard that F/W pilots sometimes takes longer becuase of muscle memories trained for flying planes). 3 weeks time = 15 days of flying x 2.5 hours a day flying = 37.5 hours. So it might be possible.

[delorean]

I disagree.

 

If you have your fixed wing license you need a minimum of thirteen (13) hours to get your ppl helicopter according to 61.109 ( c ). 10 Hours solo, 3 hours cross country, 3 hours night and 3 hours within 60 days of the checkride.

So if you do a 3 hour night cross country within 60 days of the checkride you can combine all those.

This is not a realistic scenario though, because first you need to learn to fly the helicopter, then you need the solo time and then some polishing of the maneuvers for the checkride.

It can be done in 3 weeks as long as the weather is on your side.

 

Good luck.

 

That's incorrect......you need a total (minimum) of 30 hrs for a category add-on rating.

 

(c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

He already has the "40 hrs of flight time" and needs "20 hours of flight training......10 hrs solo.....in the areas of....§61.107((3)" He has already met the req's of § 61.107(a)(3), but not ((3).

 

§ 61.107 Flight proficiency.

( Areas of operation.

(3) For a rotorcraft category rating with a helicopter class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Airport and heliport operations;

(iv) Hovering maneuvers;

(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;

(vi) Performance maneuvers;

(vii) Navigation;

(viii) Emergency operations;

(ix) Night operations, except as provided in §61.110 of this part; and

(x) Postflight procedures.

 

To the original poster:

 

And if you're doing it in a Robinson, SFAR73 requires that you receive 20 hrs of dual BEFORE you solo. So you would have to do all you checkride prep, x/c's, etc. prior to your 10 hrs solo in order to meet the minimums.

 

When I stopped CFI'ing, our school had trained 100+ pilots through the private stage. Of them, about 10 did it in less than 50 hrs. Only 1 in less than 40, 2 just over 40. And they were being trained by two 5000+ hr CFI's (and me with 500-2000 through the years.) For the most part, people averaged 55 hrs at our school. FAA stats from years past show the national average between 60-70 hrs. (And that was for add-ons and initials.)

 

I wouldn't risk it.....If you ONLY have three weeks, what happens if the WX is bad, what happens if your [just] average, what happens if the helicopter needs a part or inspection and it's down for a few days, what happens if the examiner has to cancel, what happens etc? YOUR SCREWED. You just dumped $8,000+ on your vacation and didn't finish your goal. How long are your going to have to wait before your get another week off to prep for the checkride and how much of your training are you going to lose in that time frame?

 

We tried this many times after fair warnings to the student. It doesn't work unless everything flows perfectly.....and that doesn't happen in aviation. I would plan for 6 weeks off just to be safe. Most schools are slow this time of year, so find one that has multiple helicopters, instructors, examiners, and OPENINGS.

 

The helicopter rating isn't like a Seaplane rating that you can guarantee in a weekend......it's a whole 'nother ball game.

[gft]

I disagree.

 

If you have your fixed wing license you need a minimum of thirteen (13) hours to get your ppl helicopter according to 61.109 ( c ). 10 Hours solo, 3 hours cross country, 3 hours night and 3 hours within 60 days of the checkride.

So if you do a 3 hour night cross country within 60 days of the checkride you can combine all those.

This is not a realistic scenario though, because first you need to learn to fly the helicopter, then you need the solo time and then some polishing of the maneuvers for the checkride.

It can be done in 3 weeks as long as the weather is on your side.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Hey flyby-

Your'e mistaken-

 

It's a 30 hour add on-

How do I know?

I did my rotorcraft ppl add on just last year-

 

gft

[Goldy]

Low& Slow- Let us not forget that you have to be PROFICIENT in flying the helicopter. SO, even though you immerse yourself.....you have to have the confidence that really only comes with time...so if it takes 60 or 70 hours, so be it..you'll be alive and flying will be a lot more fun. Look up the stats on fatal helo accidents that occur during the solo-pre-license state..pretty scary....and several of those were licensed FW pilots, at least one of which was an ATP.

[joker]

Hmmm, RHC SN-29 springs to mind!

 

Essential reading for anyone going from Fixed to Heli.

 

Heli Add-ons are sometimes the biggest challenge for the instructor, as the student already has preconceptions of what is expected, based on his fixed-wing training. As helicopter training (at this level) is normally more in-depth than fixed-wing, the student often feels that the instructor is being too detailed.

 

FW students come with a skill-set which is incompatible to rotorcraft flying. (See SN below.)

 

So I am always wary of these people coming from FW with an idea to fly through an add-on course.

 

With that time constraint, you put pressure on yourself to perform. This will inhibit your learning. I think go, have a look, but be totally prepared that you might not get it done.

 

Joker

 

SAFETY NOTICE SN-29 (Clipped and Paraphrased)

AIRPLANE PILOTS HIGH RISK WHEN FLYING HELICOPTER

 

There have been a number of fatal accidents involving experienced

pilots who have many hours in airplanes but with only limited

experience flying helicopters.

 

The ingrained reactions of an experienced airplane pilot can be DEADLY

when flying a helicopter. The airplane plot may fly the helicopter

well when doing the normal maneuvers under ordinary conditions when

there is time to think about the proper control response. But when

required to react suddenly under unexpected circumstances, he may

revert to his airplane reactions and commit a FATAL error. Under those

conditions, his hands and feet move purely by reaction without

conscious thought. Those reactions may well be based on his greater

experience, i.e., the reactions developed flying airplanes.

 

For example, in an airplane his reaction to a warning horn (stall)

would be to immediately go forward with the stick and add power. In a

helicopter, application of forward stick when the pilot hears a horn

(low RPM) would drive the RPM even lower and could result in rotor

stall, especially if he also "adds power" (up collective). In less

than ONE SECOND the pilot could stall his rotor, causing the

helicopter to fall out of the sky!

 

(the report goes on with a couple more unnatural reactions)

 

To stay alive in the helicopter, the experienced airplane pilot must

devote considerable time and effort to developing safe helicopter

reactions. The helicopter reactions MUST be stronger and take

precedence over the pilot's airplane reactions because everything

happens faster in a helicopter. The pilot does not have time to

realize he made the WRONG MOVE. If you think about it and then

correct for it, it's too late. The rotor has already stalled or a

blade has already struck the airframe and there is NO CHANCE OF

RECOVERY.

 

To develop safe helicopter reactions, the airplane pilot must practice

each procedure over and over again with a competent instructor until

his hands and feet will always make the right move without requiring

conscious thought. AND ABOVE ALL, HE MUST NEVER ABRUPTLY PUSH THE

CYCLIC STICK FORWARD!

 

******************end of quoted

material************************************

Edited January 16, 2007 by joker

[sneakin]

YES it can be done...

YES it will require total dedication...

YES you will need access to money...

YES you will fly your a** off everyday...

YES you will wake up about day 6 and wish it was raining so you didn't have to go fly that day...

YES you will "hit the wall" where you feel like you can't do anything right much less hover in a football field...

YES it will be worth it...

I took 2 weeks vacation, went to TOMLINSON aviation in Ormond Beach Florida, and knocked it out. Had to go back the following weekend for my ppl check ride, but I got it done in 2 weeks. And as they say "right place right time", less than a month later I was/am flying for a sherrif's office.

Bottom line: If you want it bad enough and are willing to do what it takes, you can do it.

Good luck...

[Jeff]

I have to take issue with a couple of the posts on this thread. First of all is the FW to RW dilemma that RW-only pilots seem to have. I wrote an extensive article on this in another thread. The helicopter industry in general seems to think that airplane experience is totally irrelevant when it comes to flying helicopters. This is simply not true. Flying is flying. Anytime you transition to a different aircraft, even of the same category, there are different things you have to learn to do or not do. And granted, transitioning from ASEL to Helicopter requires more learning than from ASEL to AMEL. The biggest thing I hear is shoving the cyclic forward abruptly. Except for aerobatics, there is no instance when an airplane pilot should shove the stick (or control wheel) forward abruptly. But I'll give you this: doing that in a helicopter can be fatal, while in an airplane no harm will likely result.

 

So what about the safety notice? Either the airplane pilot being trained in helicopters is not a very good airplane pilot either, the instructor producing FW-RW pilots with these problems is no good as an instructor, or a little of both. I've been flying airplanes for about 23 years and helicopters for about 3 years, and I instruct in both. I've seen students in airplanes that are marginal at best that I think wouldn't be very good in helicopters either. In fact, they should stay as far away from RW as possible. Their reactions are wrong in airplanes! Rest assured, though, that they didn't take their checkrides on my signature. But I have flown with a couple after they got their PPL and they're not much better. Yikes! So please don't be so quick to discount FW experience. There are a lot of dual-rated pilots out there, and I find it hard to believe that any more of us than a very, very small percentage are making these fatal mistakes.

 

 

The other issue I have is the number of hours for a PPL add-on (Robinson notwithstanding). The official answer on the written test is 19 hours: 10 solo, 3 night, 3 XC, and 3 prep. What about the 20 dual that someone referenced? A lot of that has already been covered in FW training, for example navigation, airport operations, and preflight and postflight procedures. However, that being said, 30 hours is more realistic for the transition.

 

Jeff

Edited January 16, 2007 by Jeff

[joker]

Jeff,

 

Good post. As a dual rated CFI, I like to read your opinions on this. Thanks.

 

I don't think anyone in the helicopter industry is saying that fixed-wing experience is irrelevant to helicopter training. There are many concepts and aspects which are the same in both. Other than the incompatible reflex actions, all FW training is relevant. It is all ‘aviation experience’.

 

However, there are differences.

 

Firstly, there is a set of motor skills required for helicopters which a person is not born with or cannot simply perform through understanding (and a little coordination) alone. Just like any child who rides a bike for the first time, any person trying helicopters for the first time will surely topple over! An analogy I often use is that of sailing and windsurfing. Both waterborne pastimes use similar physics, ropes and sails etc..etc... However, anyone could get into a sailing boat and get it going first time, just like anyone could get an airplane into the air with minimum practice. On the other hand, most everyone will fall off the windsurfer time and time again until the motor skills are learnt properly. This of course is akin to the helicopter. You may disagree, but I would say (not withstanding FW aerobatics), to be able to perform basic skills in a helicopter to an acceptable standard (or with finesse) is harder than in a airplane.

 

All too often though, this motor skill learning requirement is underestimated by FW pilots wanting to transition to RW. They breezed through their FW course, and like I said, are surprised when the same ease of training does not get them their RW ticket.

 

As well as the motor skills, there are some other skills and concepts which require a greater level of understanding or respect when flying rotorcraft. In the case of emergencies (see below) even new abilities are required.

 

Emergency procedures (engine failure training) for example is very different. In a single engine airplane you have time. Single engined helicopters require immediate action during an engine failure. It is very possible that in FW training, a pilot's ability to perform under such time pressure will never be tested. I’ve seen FW airline pilots who fly widebodies struggle with autos!

 

RW aerodynamics are significantly more complicated at the PPL level than FW. Greater respect for performance capabilities, weather hazards, terrain and wire avoidance are other areas where a FW student might come thinking he knows it sufficiently (and does for FW flying) and then is surprised at the extra detail of learning required in RW.

 

Either the airplane pilot being trained in helicopters is not a very good airplane pilot either, the instructor producing FW-RW pilots with these problems is no good as an instructor, or a little of both.

 

You make a very good point here which I totally agree with. The quality of the airplane pilot (and his prior training and experiences) makes a large difference.

 

As you know in both RW and FW training, there are poor schools and poor pilots as well as good schools and pilots. I do believe though that the RW training proportionally turns out fewer ‘poor' pilots than the FW world. Why? I think the expectations are higher (at the initial stage) in RW training than in FW training, largely due to the more refined skill set required to fly rotorcraft and the few areas (mentioned above) which require a more in-depth understanding. Also, in terms of pure numbers, there must a greater number of poor FW pilots out there than RW pilots.

 

So when a poorly trained, cocky FW pilot, who doesn't appreciate those 'added' aspects of RW flying walks through my door I mark him as a 'risk' group. As you said yourself, these are the ones who the Safety Notice addresses. These are the ones I am talking about too.

 

Jeff, I am not saying that 'every FW' pilot is going to be an awful and dangerous RW pilot. I agree, any flight training is invaluable, whatever you fly. In fact, the large majorities of transitions go smoothly, and produce excellent RW pilots.

 

All I am saying is that the reality is that the transition from RW to FW is more straight-forward, than FW to RW. When this is not appreciated by a FW>RW student (as I have seen often), then he will end up a dangerous helicopter pilot or (at least) a disappointed and frustrated one.

 

As for the other issue on the ‘Add-on’ requirements, this always comes up, but I’m too tired to go into that just now!

 

Joker

Edited January 16, 2007 by joker

[Jeff]

Joker,

 

I agree totally with your post. Here's where the difference in skill sets makes itself known... In an airplane, once you get it safely on the ground, the flight is basically over and you can pretty much relax. In a helicopter, you're flying it pretty much the entire time from rotor start to rotor start. In my training, I found this very frustrating. I think mostly because I was tense on the controls instead of relaxed. When the wind was gusty, my tension increased exponetially. Right around the 100-hour mark, I found myself handling the same or more adverse situations with relative ease. So developing the skill set required for flying a helicopter is more difficult than that for an airplane. Thanks for the enlightenment!

 

Jeff

[delorean]

The other issue I have is the number of hours for a PPL add-on (Robinson notwithstanding). The official answer on the written test is 19 hours: 10 solo, 3 night, 3 XC, and 3 prep. What about the 20 dual that someone referenced? A lot of that has already been covered in FW training, for example navigation, airport operations, and preflight and postflight procedures. However, that being said, 30 hours is more realistic for the transition.

 

Jeff

 

Wrong.....It's 30 hrs MINIMUM (20 dual + 10 solo). We went 'round and 'round with this about a year ago on this forum and the final answer was 30 hrs.

 

Again, here's the requirment for a private helicopter rating:

 

(c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

See where it says "40 hrs of flight time" and needs "20 hours of flight training......10 hrs solo.....in the areas of....§61.107((3)"?

 

§61.107((3) lists areas of operation for a Rotorcraft/Helicopter, NOT AN AIRPLANE. The airplane areas of operation are § 61.107(a)(3).

 

Regardless if you learned it in an airplane the rule says that you need "20 hrs of training in the areas listed in §61.107((3)" They are:

 

§ 61.107 Flight proficiency.

( Areas of operation.

(3) For a rotorcraft category rating with a helicopter class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Airport and heliport operations;

(iv) Hovering maneuvers;

(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;

(vi) Performance maneuvers;

(vii) Navigation;

(viii) Emergency operations;

(ix) Night operations, except as provided in §61.110 of this part; and

(x) Postflight procedures.

 

Just because you learned preflight, post flight, and emergency ops in an airplane, doesn't mean you don't have to learn them in a helicopter. All of those areas of operation are under the "Rotorcraft/Helicopter" heading which means they MUST be accomplished in a Rotorcraft/Helicopter.

 

The only exception...........The rules are a little different for add-on class ratings versus category. There's another paragraph in the FARs that talks about how pilots "need not meet minimum req's.....if pilot already holds the certificate and category rating for the class sought." Meaning, that you don't need to do all the x/c's and night time to add on a sea plane or multi-engine rating if you already have a Private SEL. Same goes for a gyroplane rating if you already hold a helicopter rating.

 

You may be confusing this with the PTS. The chart in the PTS allows examiners to not test add-on applicants on basic tasks like pilotage, wx, flight planning, etc that they would have already been tested on. However, during the normal course of flight, you're going to be doing all this stuff already.

 

In summation......It's 30 hrs minimum for a category add-on. Anyone that finds and examiner or FSDO that says otherwise will see their 8710 bounced back from OK city when it gets entered into the main computer.

[Superman]

When I did my rotorcraft add-on, I'll admit to being a little arrogant, thought I would knock it out in no time. In reality, I knew just enough about flying airplanes to be considered dangerous, and was probably lethal in a helicopter! Add to That a piss poor school selection, and it got rough for a while. Luckily, I ended up at a good school, got things all straightened out and ended up with the rating at around 50 hours over 5 weeks of training. You might consider splitting it up. Your school / instructor will play a big part in how it turns out, do your homework before you jump in.

 

Now that I'm a dual rated CFI (although I haven't done much instructing in either) I don't see where there is a big difference in the way people learn to fly, I tend to agree with Jeff and Joker, flying is flying, but there are definitely different skill sets involved. That being said, a good fixed wing pilot will tend to be a good helicopter pilot, and vise versa, in my experience anyway. Teaching good judgment is still one of the hardest things I've tried to do, some people just don't get it, no mater what controls they have a hold of.

 

The 30 hours and 61.107 ( B ) 3 as Delorean states is correct as far as I know

 

Anyway, good luck

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[FlyNHighNFast]

Thanks for all the insightful feedback, If I'm not done in the 3 weeks, I will do what I can to finish up in as short a time as possible, but the goal above all, is to be a safe and proficient pilot. I look at the HPPL as a license to learn, without the "training wheels."

 

Thanks,

Marlon

[Gunner]

I got my instrument Airplane rating in 10 days...