'Junk'? - R22 Debate Looms

[joker]

FatNLazy,

 

I am most interested in your claim that the R22 (and other RHC products) is 'junk'. I have closely looked through your 23 (or so) posts you have made in this forum, and find you have offered nothing to substantiate your claim.

 

This is your chance! A whole thread dedicated to you and your claim. (Maybe this is the attention you seek.)

 

Anyway, as you so invite me here...

so if you want to get into the mechanics of that pile of junk you better know what you're talking about.

...I openly invite you to provide to this board some hard evidence, fact, personal experience or even evidence that you have a clue as to what you are talking about. So come on, let's get into the mechanics of this. I'm game! Hey, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm here to listen. I think I can take the 'mechanics' of it.

 

I've already stated previously that I have never flown either one

I find it hard to stomach how you can be so self-assured on this point without having ever flown this aircraft type. Nor does it seem to me that you have much of a 'wide-ranging' experience in many aircraft types.

I'm just a commercial rated precision long line guy w/no airplane or inst, or anything else special.

 

You claim that the fact that you are an A&P justifies your remarks. Can you explain this for me?

It's a little known fact that I'm also an A & P, hence the remark that robbies are junk

 

Yes, it is probable that you know something that I don't for I admit, I don't know everything and I am not an A&P. So if that is the case, I'd love to hear it what you do know. As you say, it is your aim to 'inform' others. However,as you have not actually discussed the R22, have continually told us how much you do know about this aircraft, the most being that it is 'junk', so at this moment in time, I am not convinced.

 

So please convince me. Before you give me 'NTSB' report, various crash reports, etc..etc.. please come up with something new. I don't want the usual stuff that I can read on the hundreds of other debates....please give me something new...something that only a great and learned A & P, such as yourself, might know.

 

I'm just trying to maby inform some of the more open minded pilots to the extreme danger that they will be putting themselves into when learning to fly a robbie.

Can you remind me or point me to the post where you 'informed' anyone of anything useful.

 

This debate has raged for ever. You will need more than the word 'junk' to gain respect. Come up with something new (or at least something old) and people might take you seriously. Until you do, I think it is actually you that needs to 'grow up'. Stop being deliberately antagonistic. If that's all you have to offer, go somewhere else.

 

Lastly,

 

I would be curious to know how many robbie pilots have made it into the industry and now fly mediums or even heavys and are making a living at it, and what there opinion may be on the safety of the robbie.

 

I don't know what bearing this information has on anything, but if it helps your survey, I have instructed in S300 and R22. Now I fly S76s. If given due respect, I believe the R22 is adequately safe. There!

 

By the way, I am not a 'Robbie Ranger'. Personally, I couldn't really care less for further R22 debate. What I don't like is people making sweeping claims, knowing that they are antagonistic, without any substantiation whatsoever. I think the people on this board deserve an explanation.

 

If this thread goes nowhere, I will seek from the moderators its closure, removal and penalties on your membership and posting privilages.

 

Joker

Edited January 28, 2007 by joker

[RockyMountainPilot]

I am an A&P IA & Instructor in both airplanes and helicopters, and I work as an EMS pilot. I have flown the Robinsons a great deal from my initial training, to hundreds of hours of dual given. I think they are perfectly safe. I would much rather be in a Robinson that a 300 or an Enstrom. The only thing I never liked about the Robinsons was the Astro. The lack of hydraulics was a pain, and the trim system wasn't kinda quirky. But other than that, I think they are the best light helicopters ever made. I can't wait for a turbine Robinson.

 

Also, as an A&P IA, I think they are extremely well made. They were made with the mechanic in mind. They are easy to perform maintanence on compared to any other helicopter, the parts and tools are relatively cheap, and most everything is easily accessible. The derated engine is so reliable and underworked, that the only problems I ever seem to see from the engine usually involve sitting time and not flying induced problems. I have performed dozens and dozens of 100 hour and annual inspections, and to date the extent of my unscheduled maintenance has been to replace some seals, balance and track the rotors, replace some alternators, and shim the engine once. Might be more, but that is all I can remember at this point.

 

Lastly, as a former FBO owner, and flight school manager, the 2200 overhaul is the greatest aspect of the Robinsons. It is far more efficient to have a helicopter down for 3 months, than have to tear is apart to replace components and have it down for 2 weeks here and 2 weeks there. The affordability of the Robinsons is absolutley amazing. comparing a 300'sto an R22 is ridiculous. The 300's all had a great deal more unscheduled maintenance required and we simply couldn't get close to operating them near the R22's costs. Even the 300CBi.

 

Someone has to have a lot of nerve to bash something they have never flown.

[james28]

he did the same thing over at justhelicopters.com. he's just trying to cause a stir.

[RockyMountainPilot]

he did the same thing over at justhelicopters.com. he's just trying to cause and stir.

 

Ever notice how fat, lazy, and stupid people never want to make themselves more intelligent? They want to spread their ignorrance and bring others down to their level of intelligence. He could also over feed all of his friends making them fat so he will appear slimmer.

[james28]

yea. he's a big drama queen.

[fatnlazy]

Oh, you fella's make me feel so special, A post dedicated to me and my own personal opinion, wow! I still think there junk and that they are gonna kill some of you guy's. And the fatnlazy stuff you come up w/is very funny, I'm 5 ft 9 and 215 lbs, ( like thats a crime ) and I know that that might make me sound fat and I don't care, I work out daily and am in quite good shape, the fat-n-lazy was meant to be humorous as I am a bit of a comic, I could have come up W/a user name that says "LOOK AT ME I'M A PILOT" BULL THAT A LOT OF YOU GUY'S LIKE TO USE, but I've had fatnlazy since before I can remember.

Now I will give you some background so you have more ammo for you personal attacks, I am a disabled US ARMY, decorated combat vet, I've been a police officer, a fireman, and a logger, I've owned a heavy const. co. as well as a small trucking co. and everything brought me back to the cockpit, I never went to school for my A & P, I simply worked in a repair station during the winters when I wasn't w/the helicopter, obtained the experience needed, took the test's and waalaa.

As far as nothing to offer as to my claim of JUNK or the fact that they are dangerous, I have only personal exp. ( wrench side only ), friends and foe's exp, PM's from other JH/VERT REF. posters and of course NTSB reports, and if that doesn't spell it out for you, theres nothing else that I can say to change your mind. Just remember fellas I'ts my opinon, I'm not making you eat meat or anything.

Now I know that I've hurt some feeling here fellas but get over it, don't take yourself's so serious.

Let the attacks begin, and if you do have any more specific questions fire away.

[gft]

yawnn-------

[RockyMountainPilot]

Oh, you fella's make me feel so special, A post dedicated to me and my own personal opinion, wow! I still think there junk and that they are gonna kill some of you guy's. And the fatnlazy stuff you come up w/is very funny, I'm 5 ft 9 and 215 lbs, ( like thats a crime ) and I know that that might make me sound fat and I don't care, I work out daily and am in quite good shape, the fat-n-lazy was meant to be humorous as I am a bit of a comic, I could have come up W/a user name that says "LOOK AT ME I'M A PILOT" BULL THAT A LOT OF YOU GUY'S LIKE TO USE, but I've had fatnlazy since before I can remember.

Now I will give you some background so you have more ammo for you personal attacks, I am a disabled US ARMY, decorated combat vet, I've been a police officer, a fireman, and a logger, I've owned a heavy const. co. as well as a small trucking co. and everything brought me back to the cockpit, I never went to school for my A & P, I simply worked in a repair station during the winters when I wasn't w/the helicopter, obtained the experience needed, took the test's and waalaa.

As far as nothing to offer as to my claim of JUNK or the fact that they are dangerous, I have only personal exp. ( wrench side only ), friends and foe's exp, PM's from other JH/VERT REF. posters and of course NTSB reports, and if that doesn't spell it out for you, theres nothing else that I can say to change your mind. Just remember fellas I'ts my opinon, I'm not making you eat meat or anything.

Now I know that I've hurt some feeling here fellas but get over it, don't take yourself's so serious.

Let the attacks begin, and if you do have any more specific questions fire away.

 

You are suched an accomplished person. Now that I know you were a police officer, I know understand your expertise on the Robinsons. If you would have just told us all of your experience working in unrelated fields, we would certainly have taken you more serious. I know when I want expert advice about helicopters, I ask the local trucking company owner.

[LostHeliBoy]

yikes.... thought this thread was intersting until I read the Bashing that "fatnlazy" got..

 

 

Frank built the R22 to be produced econimcally and flown safely.. with the minimum of moving parts .. like fuel boost. vacuum pumps (which are illsuited for helicopters anyway) simple two bladed system, and it works. Frank never intended this helicopter to go into the training market.. he was of the mind to make a helicopter that people could use to fly into work from there driveway... well that did not happen inthat manner really..

 

its not really junk just is a light piston helicopter and is less stable than its bigger more stable turbine 2nd cousins.. a good trainer becasue of its inherant instablity but if understood and flown in the limits can be a good step to the bigger more stable machines... Many people I have talked to state than a robbie pilot can fly other machines but its hard to learn on a more stable platform and then learn to fly the R22..

 

Not junk.. unless treated like junk...

[TCHone]

It does take a little extra skill to fly the R22. If you don't have it then it's ok to stick with the UH-1. It's ok to be a little scared.

[LostHeliBoy]

Yup... scared is good... means your paying attention...

not scared = complacent = mistakes..

 

 

I'd love to fly the uh-1 as I understand it .. becasue of the two bladed design.. it sits on the IGE beachball like a R22 .. is this a good assumtion? oops ass-u-me ..

[fatnlazy]

In response to LostHeliBoy

 

I don't know if there the same or not, I do know however that it is not hard to fly a UH-1, any monkey can do it, look at me, if your ever in the area I'll take you up and show you. From what I here though the r-22 is a bear to fly and I've been told by some of the fella's on this forum that I would never be able to do it. Just as well though I couldn't see myself paying money to go to a special SFAR 73 school to get the min. 20 hrs or so required so that I could become a robbie flight instructor, make 16$ an hr, and fly 10 hrs a week, when I can stay where I'm at 2 on 2 off flying 100+ hrs a month at 80$+ an hr. I just don't see the logic in it.

Anyhow email me if you get in my area and we will go for a little spin.

[fatnlazy]

As to the wide range of aircraft I've flown I'ts probably not as wide as yours but here it goes, TH-55, H269A,B,C,CBI, ENSTOM F-28,F280, HILLER UH-12E, ROTOWAY 162EX, C-152, C-172, OH-58C, B206B,L1, B-407, H369, ( 500D ) AS350, UH-1B,E,F,H,L,M,P, B212HP, HH-43 HUSKY.

I've flown the fert bucket, concrete bucket, bambi bucket, logs, const material, atv's, AC units, hay and straw w/nets, etc, etc, etc, with the line. I've done const., power line patrol, SAR, humanitarian relief, frost, and x-mas trees.

cell tower work, and fires and I might have missed something, I'm not as young as you robbie rangers are and don't remember like I used to. so I guess I see your point that I may not be as experienced as yourself and therefore do not deserve an opinion.

Edited January 29, 2007 by fatnlazy

[West Coaster]

The thing most pilots have trouble with when learning the R22 is over controlling. It's not so much the machine that's the bear... it's the pilot. But you get used to it, stop fighting the thing and you and the R22 start working together. Once that happens it's a total dream to fly.

[LostHeliBoy]

Yikes

 

As to the wide range of aircraft I've flown I'ts probably not as wide as yours but here it goes, TH-55, H269A,B,C,CBI, ENSTOM F-28,F280, HILLER UH-12E, ROTOWAY 162EX, C-152, C-172, OH-58C, B206B,L1, B-407, H369, ( 500D ) AS350, UH-1B,E,F,H,L,M,P, B212HP, HH-43 HUSKY.

I've flown the fert bucket, concrete bucket, bambi bucket, logs, const material, atv's, AC units, hay and straw w/nets, etc, etc, etc, with the line. I've done const., power line patrol, SAR, humanitarian relief, frost,

cell tower work, and fires and I might have missed something, I'm not as young as you robbie rangers are and don't remember like I used to. so I guess I see your point that I may not be as experienced as yourself and therefore do not deserve an opinion.

 

 

I mean't NO disrespect! I'm not a Robbie jock, cowboy or other wise... just trying to be a safe pilot.. and wanted to discuss the hover aspects of the UH-1 Vs. the R22... and that was it.. I was commenting on the things that I have over heard from pilots like yourself High time,Very experienced ones who have flown the R22 and said that it was challenging... I hope to one day climb the ladder of flight experience to get to your lofty position.. But until then I get to only fly one platform and sepeculate how it prepares me for the next one... SO I'd love to take you up the the offer to "go for a spin" and I'll bring with me an open mind..

 

As for you flying the R22.. I guess after the laundry list you really don't need to do the SFAR 73 requirments because when are you going to use a R22 to haul anything on a hook unless your in NZ.. And as a well qualified pilot(see laundry list) your opinion is Very Valuable to a relitively low timer pilot like me.. SO keep it flowing ...

 

CHEERS

[fatnlazy]

Did I mention that I have a HAZMAT CDL W/TANKER ENDORSEMENT SO I CAN DRIVE THE FUEL TRUCK AS WELL. (I JUST GOT MY SH** paddle out so I could stir the pot again.)

NTSB query robinson back to 1977, 784 accidents / inncidents, 162 fatal

NTSB query hughes 269 back to 1965, 1105 accidents / inncidents, 108 fatal

 

The 300 has 12 more years in the industry w/at least 50% less fatalities,( NO robbies aren't dangerous )

Edited January 29, 2007 by fatnlazy

[RockyMountainPilot]

Did I mention that I have a HAZMAT CDL W/TANKER ENDORSEMENT SO I CAN DRIVE THE FUEL TRUCK AS WELL. (I JUST GOT MY SH** paddle out so I could stir the pot again.)

NTSB query robinson back to 1977, 784 accidents / inncidents, 262 fatalities

NTSB query hughes 269 back to 1965, 1105 accidents / inncidents, 74 fatalities

 

The 300 has 12 more years in the industry and almost 75% less fatalities,( NO robbies aren't dangerous )

 

I suggest you take a class on statistics.

[fatnlazy]

As usual the numbers are right in front of you and you are still blind, there is no hope for you brother, with eye sight like that you may have trouble w/your next medical, I'm not making these numbers up man!!!!

[LostHeliBoy]

Did I mention that I have a HAZMAT CDL W/TANKER ENDORSEMENT SO I CAN DRIVE THE FUEL TRUCK AS WELL. (I JUST GOT MY SH** paddle out so I could stir the pot again.)

NTSB query robinson back to 1977, 784 accidents / inncidents, 262 fatalities

NTSB query hughes 269 back to 1965, 1105 accidents / inncidents, 74 fatalities

 

The 300 has 12 more years in the industry and almost 75% less fatalities,( NO robbies aren't dangerous )

 

 

OK so again statistics.... what do those readly avialible ##'s mean?

 

Pilot error?

 

or

 

Mechanical fault?

 

Remember when this thread was about the "junk or not junk" theme?

 

Quote--->fatnlazy

 

Now I will give you some background so you have more ammo for you personal attacks, I am a disabled US ARMY, decorated combat vet, I've been a police officer, a fireman, and a logger, I've owned a heavy const. co. as well as a small trucking co. and everything brought me back to the cockpit, I never went to school for my A & P, I simply worked in a repair station during the winters when I wasn't w/the helicopter, obtained the experience needed, took the test's and waalaa.

 

Add to that list CDL HAZMAT tanker... and consumate food conissour... most of those jobs require sitting and eating...

Edited January 28, 2007 by LostHeliBoy

[delorean]

Did I mention that I have a HAZMAT CDL W/TANKER ENDORSEMENT SO I CAN DRIVE THE FUEL TRUCK AS WELL. (I JUST GOT MY SH** paddle out so I could stir the pot again.)

NTSB query robinson back to 1977, 784 accidents / inncidents, 262 fatalities

NTSB query hughes 269 back to 1965, 1105 accidents / inncidents, 74 fatalities

 

The 300 has 12 more years in the industry and almost 75% less fatalities,( NO robbies aren't dangerous )

 

 

Unless you back those statistics with flight hours flown, they mean absolutely NOTHING.

 

Post the "fatals per 100,000 hrs" and maybe someone will take you seriousely.

 

That's like saying that Ford cars have had 10, 100, 1000+ times fatal more accidents than AMCs. OF COURSE THEY HAVE!!! Duh....How many cars has Ford built and how many more miles have they been driven?

 

Robinson has built 7,000+ helicopters since 1977. How many has Hughes/SAC? Not anywhere close!

 

-Jonathan

CFI/CFII A&P/IA

[fatnlazy]

The only way to know is to read each report individualy, but does it really matter, lets just say that they were all pilot error, does that mean that robbie pilots aren't being trained very well, but the 300 guys are, I doubt that is the case, lets say that they are all mech. prob. for both the -22 and the 300, does that say that the 300 must auto better, probably does but I doubt you would agree, the piont is that they are both training helicopters, one has been in buisness a lot longer and has less fatal accidents, you can complicate it as much as you want it doesn't change the numbers, the R-22 just don't crash well.

 

About the comment about most of those jobs require sitting and eating you have obviously never been an LEO, or a fireman, logger.

 

But to be honest I do love to sit down and eat, beats the hell out of standing up.

Edited January 29, 2007 by fatnlazy

[fatnlazy]

The following website from brazos helicopters has the NTSB report that shows accident rate per 100,000 flight hrs indicating that the R-22 is 2.5 times more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a h269/300, per 100,000 flight hrs.

 

www.hothelicopters.com click on career helicopter pilot program, click on career schools, scroll and read

Edited January 29, 2007 by fatnlazy

[mechanic]

FNL,

The query shows 100 R22 fatals and 98 fatals 269 in the time frame you said. We already had this dicussion.

 

 

 

Robinson HC link, go to bottom of the pdf, I mean last page, is NTSB statistics.

[fatnlazy]

You are wrong again, I don't know were you got your numbers but they are wrong!!!

 

NTSB query robinson 1977-present, 784 accidents/incidents, 162 fatal

NTSB query hughes 269 1965-present 1105 accidents/incidents, 108 fatal

 

According to the brazos helicopters NTSB report that shows accident rate per 100,000 flight hrs the R-22 is 2.5 times more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a 269/300 per 100,000 flight hrs, read them and weep.

Edited January 29, 2007 by fatnlazy

[mechanic]

You can't believe everything you hear from Brazos, I know of many people that have been their and know. I don't trust Mike. And, thats my opinion only from people who I've talked to over the years. Besides, the link you posted doesn't work... THE QUERY HIGHLIGHTS FATALS, TRY IT YOURSELF....