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UH-60 Settling w/Power


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Some sort of engine or drive failure, possibly?

 

Watch the massive RPM change at end of flare just before the settling (0:22). Would you get this if it was simple VRS?

 

Also the sound changes dramatically (1:03). Add to that a right yaw (seen in first part) (0:21), and then the high sudden rate of descent (0:23).

 

It all sounds to me like a powerplant problem at just the wrong time. If so, then the pilot did a great job of getting to the ground from that position.

 

But that's just speculation.

 

I admit I could be totally wrong.

 

Joker

Edited by joker
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Some sort of engine or drive failure, possibly?

 

Watch the massive RPM change at end of flare just before the settling (0:22). Would you get this if it was simple VRS?

 

Also the sound changes dramatically (1:03). Add to that a right yaw (seen in first part) (0:21), and then the high sudden rate of descent (0:23).

 

It all sounds to me like a powerplant problem at just the wrong time. If so, then the pilot did a great job of getting to the ground from that position.

 

But that's just speculation.

 

I admit I could be totally wrong.

 

Joker

 

Joker,

 

You're right about the sound in the RPM change, at the end of the flare! And there's a slight yaw at 1:04, and that's when you hear the RPM change. Do you love the guy saying at :55 "That's normal" LOL. Maybe it was powerplant failure? Joker...your never wrong! :) I appreciate the input though!

Where are the hawk drivers?

 

About 15 years ago, a UH-60 was doing a quick stop to a pad near downtown L.A. at night. I just remember seeing it about a 60+ degree nose up attitude as it came across the 101...Man I wished I could of pulled over to see the whole thing!

 

Still one of faves in the military arsenal!

 

Rob

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This accident was talked about during some CRM training I had awhile back. If I remember correctly the cause was a failed/locked stabilator in which the PIC did not let the copilot manually adjust it and he just ran out of cyclic or something on the approach. It WAS NOT however SWP. Maybe some hawk drivers herecan expand on it or know more about what happened as I have forgotten by now. I do know that the a factor in the accident was lack of CRM.

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I've seen that video a few times from Bell as part of HeliProps training. I remember them talking about the flags in the background and focusing in on them. You can't really tell from this copy.

 

They told us the guy was landing downwind. Came in hot, had a HUGE rate of decent, and pulled some major power at the end = VRS. See the high blade angle toward the end and helicopter just drops faster? That's what they told us it was......

 

We never saw the second half of that though. The first half part actually lasted a little longer. The guy with the video camera came around the left side more and zoomed in on the pilot. He was looking at his lap shaking his head back and forth probably just realizing how bad he screwed up.

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Rotor91,

 

That proves it...Joker can be wrong!

 

Here's another one for the CRM discussion.

 

 

I believe there is another thread running about low time Copilots? I wonder what time this copilot had. - LEVERS!

 

Joker

Edited by joker
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Rotor91,

 

That proves it...Joker can be wrong!

 

Here's another one for the CRM discussion.

 

I believe there is another thread running about low time Copilots? I wonder what time this copilot had. - LEVERS!

 

Joker

 

 

If he is a good soldier, his wrist watch should be GMT +/- Zero.

 

I couldn't Resist....But to answer your question with a question:

 

Quantity or Quality?

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It wasnt VRS and it wasn't a stab failure (which btw, could never have caused that.)

 

Stab failure induced crashes are almost urban legend for causing Hawk crashes and and be contributed to a very low percentage of contributing causes for aircraft incidents.

 

They use it for CRM training because of some of the background of the crash.

 

First and foremost there was a higher time PC with an attitude and a newer PI flying and they didnt quite like each other leading to a communication problem.

 

The crash itself was caused by coming in too fast for the conditions, not enough experience doing fastropes with the crew and mushing. While you did hear the RPM drop it probably wasnt in low rotor condition yet. It will droop a long way before that happens. The problem is mushing will still occur even if you have enough power to complete the maneauver, you just have to plan for it properly.

 

Even the Hawk comes in low in the power department in high demand conditions. Additionally, the A model of the aircraft had 700 engines with (analog) ECU which basicially controls engine management and is much slower to react to transient torque droop then the more current 701's with a (digital)DEC and other additional equipment like and additional NR sensor and collective position indicator.

 

The CRM part comes in play when the PC told the PI to sit on his hands and remain quiet. Which he did right down to the ground even while thinking they were exceeding thier capablilites in the given condtions. Great job with that 2 challenge rule huh.

 

I know alot of you think we hotdog these aircraft, but with proper training and experience it just isnt the case. These maneauvers are necessary and safe when done properly. Not to mention the aircraft are designed to do more than go A to B.

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