Instruction with no medical ??

[Helihead]

another question that may not be realistic, but is interesting.

I had a conversation with some one today, they said if the student is rated for the category and class, that since

they can be the acting PIC, the instructor does not need to have a medical certificate to give instruction. Just found this interesting... never even really thought about, it but it does make since if the student is rated and knows how to fly the helicopter already, but that means a CFI teach with out a medical how would he get his CFI would he/she have to lose or not renew there medical after getting signed off as a CFI? well if it is true could the instrutor log PIC time if he wasn't the acting PIC since 61.51 says and instructor can log PIC for instruction.

 

 

I am sure this doesn't happen often if ever, but just blows my mind to know that this could be possible.

 

I am not against.

 

just thought the FAR wouldn't allow this.

[FUSE]

another question that may not be realistic, but is interesting.

I had a conversation with some one today, they said if the student is rated for the category and class, that since

they can be the acting PIC, the instructor does not need to have a medical certificate to give instruction. Just found this interesting... never even really thought about, it but it does make since if the student is rated and knows how to fly the helicopter already, but that means a CFI teach with out a medical how would he get his CFI would he/she have to lose or not renew there medical after getting signed off as a CFI? well if it is true could the instrutor log PIC time if he wasn't the acting PIC since 61.51 says and instructor can log PIC for instruction.

 

 

I am sure this doesn't happen often if ever, but just blows my mind to know that this could be possible.

 

I am not against.

 

just thought the FAR wouldn't allow this.

 

Don't believe that is allowed according to 61.195

 

___________________________________________________________

 

A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

 

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

 

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

 

___________________________________________________________

 

and without a current medical you can not exercise any pilot certificate privileges.

[PhotoFlyer]

Don't believe that is allowed according to 61.195

 

___________________________________________________________

 

A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

 

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

 

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

 

___________________________________________________________

 

and without a current medical you can not exercise any pilot certificate privileges.

 

61.195 doesn't say anything about a medical, which is what he was asking about, so 61.195 doesn't preclude a CFI from teaching without a medical.

 

And you are correct, without a medical you can't exercise the privileges of a pilot certificate. BUT, if the student is rated in category/class/type and can act as PIC then a flight instructor DOES NOT need a medical. Unless the instructor ACTS as PIC or SIC he/she does not need a medical because he/she isn't exercising the privileges of their pilot certificate, only their flight instructor certificate.

 

And finally, yes, that instructor could log the training time as PIC time even though he has no medical. As has been pointed out in numerous other threads, logging PIC and acting as PIC are two completely different things. 61.51(3) specifically allows an instructor who is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls to log PIC when acting as an authorized instructor.

Edited October 12, 2007 by PhotoFlyer

[Goldy]

61.195 doesn't say anything about a medical, which is what he was asking about, so 61.195 doesn't preclude a CFI from teaching without a medical.

 

And you are correct, without a medical you can't exercise the privileges of a pilot certificate. BUT, if the student is rated in category/class/type and can act as PIC then a flight instructor DOES NOT need a medical. Unless the instructor ACTS as PIC or SIC he/she does not need a medical because he/she isn't exercising the privileges of their pilot certificate, only their flight instructor certificate.

 

And finally, yes, that instructor could log the training time as PIC time even though he has no medical. As has been pointed out in numerous other threads, logging PIC and acting as PIC are two completely different things. 61.51(3) specifically allows an instructor who is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls to log PIC when acting as an authorized instructor.

 

In my not so humble opinion.....yepp, you can do it all day long.

 

I love tricky FAR questions. Here's another one. Do you have to be a pilot to teach pilot ground school(s) ?

Edited October 12, 2007 by Goldy

[joker]

Where would a FAR thread be without 2 cents from Joker?!!!

 

Regarding the medical issue, PhotoFlyer is totally correct. A flight instructor does not need a medical if instructing a properly rated pilot who acts as PIC. What-is-more, that instructor may log this time as PIC according to 61.51

 

Added Note On This:

 

Let's say you are doing your commercial. You are ready at the flight school waiting by your helicopter and your instructor pitches up just a few minutes late and say, "Sorry, I'm late. I couldn't find my medical!" What would you do?

 

Do you say:

 

A) "No problems, VR forums said you don't need it. I can act as PIC. Let's kick the tyres and light the fires."

 

"Oh, well. It looks like we'll be canning this flight then. Let's go get drunk down the pub!"

 

Have I made a point yet?

 

Do you have to be a pilot to teach pilot ground school(s) ?

Hey, Goldy...is this a tricky question or a trick question!

 

Anyone can instruct in ground schools (apart from 141 situations). A school may employ Joe Bloggs from the local university to give say a lecture on meterology (covers the 'trick' question). However, only 'authorised instructors' may sign off the endorsements and attest that a student has met any requirements. These are properly rated 'authorised instructors'.

 

61.213 prescribes the eligibility requirements to become a ground instructor.

 

There is no requirement here for a ground instructor to have any kind of pilots license.

 

This is opposed to 61.185 - Eligibility Requirements to become a flight instructor where it specifically states the candidate must have a commercial or better.

 

So in answer to your question (and in the spirit of your question), NO you don't need to be a pilot to be a ground instructor.

 

Joker

Edited October 12, 2007 by joker

[tboy]

Helihead,

A reference in the FAR concerning the CFI not needing a medical if s/he is not acting as PIC, is 61.23 ((5)

 

Troy

[tboy]

Not sure how that smiley face came up. Supposed to be a lower case B.

Troy

[Helihead]

Helihead,

A reference in the FAR concerning the CFI not needing a medical if s/he is not acting as PIC, is 61.23 ((5)

 

Troy

 

Thanks everyone. any more tricky questions similar to this?

[joker]

Whenever I discuss FARs, I turn 'Emoticons' off. These get muddle up with which is the code for some smily.

 

As for tricky questions, here's one. Well, not tricky if you know it, but might be interesting.

 

We answered the question for instructors. Can you show / not show that this is true for examiners or inspectors? What do they need?

 

Also, in my earlier post, I suggested that even though you were legally able to act as PIC whilst being a student, say, if your instructor didn't have a medical with him, why could this be a bad idea?

Joker

[PhotoFlyer]

Whenever I discuss FARs, I turn 'Emoticons' off. These get muddle up with which is the code for some smily.

 

As for tricky questions, here's one. Well, not tricky if you know it, but might be interesting.

 

We answered the question for instructors. Can you show / not show that this is true for examiners or inspectors? What do they need?

 

Also, in my earlier post, I suggested that even though you were legally able to act as PIC whilst being a student, say, if your instructor didn't have a medical with him, why could this be a bad idea?

Joker

 

As for examiners:

Excerpt from 61.23(

(7) When serving as an examiner or check airman during the administration of a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device; or

(8) When taking a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device.

 

As for the second question, I'm not sure what you are getting at joker. It may be the fact that "legally" without a medical an instructor can't take the controls to recover the aircraft. However, since this is just a legal issue I would have no problem saving my own butt by taking control even if I had no medical (at all, or just not with me). Further, if I took the controls in an emergency, even though I don't have my medical, I am becoming the PIC. As PIC 91.3( allows me to deviate from any regulation to the extent necessary to meet that emergency. So as long as I turned over control of the aircraft after regaining control, through that interpretation everything was kosher.

 

I'm not saying I would fly without my medical, but in that event there is a legal way out; Although it is a very liberal interpretation of the FARs. Another interpretation is that if the "student" never let go of the controls and was still "flying" then the instructor never acted as pilot in command.

 

*Disclaimer*

I don't fly, haven't ever flown, and will never fly, without my medical, pilot certificate, flight instructors certificate, or my photo ID. I don't suggest you do it. If you decide to fly without any of those documents because of my interpretation of the FARs I am not responsible.

[joker]

PhotoFlyer (et. Al.),

 

You make good points suggesting that in dire situation you would of course take control of the aircraft, and in effect become PIC of the aircraft.

 

The point I am trying to make is from the student's viewpoint, not the instructor's.

 

Just to review, the scenario is where the instructor at a flight school appears for a commercial lesson without his medical certificate. We know that he may not act as PIC for the flight. They (he and student) continue with the commercial training flight.

 

Of course the student must be a rated pilot for this to happen.

 

My point is one of liability. By accepting this flight, the student is now accepting the burdens of responsibility described in 91.3, 91.7 and 91.103.

 

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

 

Sec. 91.7

Civil aircraft airworthiness

( The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

 

Sec. 91.103

Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

 

91.3 says it all though. The PIC is directly responsible for the operation of the aircraft. This responsibility ranges from damage caused by a wayward hover auto to ramp check items such as incomplete maintenance records or inoperative equipment. God forbid it happen, but it could also include things like runway incursions, airspace busts, accidents or incidents, and fatalities involving the aircraft.

 

Therefore, I think it would be unwise for a student (in a flight school where the flight is taking place in an instructional setting with appropriate insurance) to accept this responsibility without being 100% sure what the school's insurance policy says about it. If anything did happen, that student could quickly find himself on his own facing a caution, violation or manslaugter charge. If I was a student I wouldn't ever assume responsibility as PIC - that's what my instructor is there for.

 

When I was instructing, anytime I was doing a preflight briefing to a rated pilot, my first words were, "For the purpose of this flight, I will be PIC..." Particularly with pilots with a lot of experience (FAA Inspectors, Contract trainees from other countries etc..etc..) This made clear who was PIC. It helped to maintain a cockpit gradient and made clear my authority to override any action or decision. I think this helps to make the session easier for both student and instructor. Anytime where a student has authority over an instructor could be dangerous.

 

Contrast this to examiners and inspectors who are often unwilling to 'act as PIC'. I suppose for exactly the same reasons as mine above. There's not much a candidate can do about this. After passing my private, during a preflight briefing on a checkride, I would always state, ""For the purpose of this flight, I will be PIC, however, at anytime during the flight, I might enlist your assistance. I also ask in advance that you act accordingly to any situation that may arise to safely meet the extent of the situation." I think some examiners liked that!

 

Well, its food for thought anyway.

 

Joker

Edited October 13, 2007 by joker

[Raptor^]

Have a look at this article by AOPA regarding the medical and CFI:

 

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_...fm?article=4674