New IFR question(s)...

[joelpry]

Ok so long time reader, first time poster... I have been reading all the IFR, VFR, IMC, VMC posts on the forums and I think I have it all straight...hope you do too, but was curious about a couple things.

 

1. In regards to flying along with an IFR flight plan in the IFR environment...if VMC is unable to be maintained due to an ATC request etc. and aircraft is not equipped for IMC, is the only option to cancel the IFR flight plan and go about your business VFR? Or am I reading the AIM right (4-4-7 and 4-4-8) when it speaks to the fact that a VFR-on-top clearance can be obtained and assuming terrain clearance is assured by visibility (pilots), the IFR flight plan can be kept?? thus allowing a student to complete their long cross-country IFR flight in less than perfect weather condition days??

 

2. This one is kinda fun....SO, the commercial pilot helicopter rating (61.129 c, 3, ii ) states that one cross country flight must be made of at least 2 hours in a helicopter in day vfr conditions. So my questions is, assuming that a CFII (safety pilot) is onboard, can the student fly, under regular ol' VFR, with a view limiting device on and log that flight as both their long cross country flight for commercial requirements and log simulated instrument time for their instrument rating??

 

I will withold my thoughts until I hear everyone else's

 

thanks.....

[fast03cobra]

Ok so long time reader, first time poster... I have been reading all the IFR, VFR, IMC, VMC posts on the forums and I think I have it all straight...hope you do too, but was curious about a couple things.

 

1. In regards to flying along with an IFR flight plan in the IFR environment...if VMC is unable to be maintained due to an ATC request etc. and aircraft is not equipped for IMC, is the only option to cancel the IFR flight plan and go about your business VFR? Or am I reading the AIM right (4-4-7 and 4-4-8) when it speaks to the fact that a VFR-on-top clearance can be obtained and assuming terrain clearance is assured by visibility (pilots), the IFR flight plan can be kept?? thus allowing a student to complete their long cross-country IFR flight in less than perfect weather condition days??

 

2. This one is kinda fun....SO, the commercial pilot helicopter rating (61.129 c, 3, ii ) states that one cross country flight must be made of at least 2 hours in a helicopter in day vfr conditions. So my questions is, assuming that a CFII (safety pilot) is onboard, can the student fly, under regular ol' VFR, with a view limiting device on and log that flight as both their long cross country flight for commercial requirements and log simulated instrument time for their instrument rating??

 

I will withold my thoughts until I hear everyone else's

 

thanks.....

 

1) If you're on a IFR Flight plan you better be flying an aircraft that is IFR capable and you'd better have an instrument rating. A student pilot MUST fly in VFR only. VFR on top allows for a climb through IMC conditions to VFR conditions and also requires an instrument rating; definetely not for student pilots!!.

 

2) NO if you log simulated instrument conditions you can't use it for your Commercial VFR X/C. I know I tried to use a long x/c that I logged for my fixed wing instrument rating towards my Commercial ASEL; however it wouldn't "fly" with the FAA and examiner.

[joelpry]

1) If you're on a IFR Flight plan you better be flying an aircraft that is IFR capable and you'd better have an instrument rating. A student pilot MUST fly in VFR only. VFR on top allows for a climb through IMC conditions to VFR conditions and also requires an instrument rating; definetely not for student pilots!!.

 

2) NO if you log simulated instrument conditions you can't use it for your Commercial VFR X/C. I know I tried to use a long x/c that I logged for my fixed wing instrument rating towards my Commercial ASEL; however it wouldn't "fly" with the FAA and examiner.

 

Thanks for the reply... I agree with 2, pretty cut and dry the more I look into it.... However for 1: as its said in other posts, non IMC certified aircraft can be on IFR flight plans (for training) and conduct IFR training in VMC, with a current CFII on board. The VFR-on-top clearance does allow the aircraft to remain in VMC, but it doesnt have to be "on top" for the clearance to be used, for example, to not climb into an overcast cloud layer in the first place. Thus allowing students to make their long cross country flight under an IFR environment without having perfect weather... at least thats my take

[EC120AV8R]

If you are an IFR flight plan and climb out to VFR on top, you are bound to both IFR and VFR rules. Also, if you are flying "actual" (which you would have to do to get on top), you not only have to be rated, and in an aircraft that that is IFR equipped, but the aircraft must also be IFR certified.

[joker]

Good questions!

 

I too will withold my full explanations, because I am just about to go to Rugby training.

 

Suffice to say:

 

1. Regulations aside - You've got to be bloody stupid to try this out!

 

2. I can't believe people even try this! Fast03Cobra, what were you thinking? How does anyone propose that they can cover 'commercial training' on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127((3) namely:

 

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Airport and heliport operations;

(iv) Hovering maneuvers;

(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;

(vi) Performance maneuvers;

(vii) Navigation;

(viii) Emergency operations;

(ix) Special operations; and

(x) Postflight procedures.

 

...with a view limiting device on?! No! Commercial training is commercial training. Instrument training is instrument training. They cannot be mixed...for training purposes.

 

Joker

[southernweyr]

§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions. (3) Cross-country time means— (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

Pilotage is the use of fixed VISUAL REFERENCES on the ground or sea by means of sight or radar to guide oneself to a destination, sometimes with the help of a map or nautical chart.

[joelpry]

dont know if my first reply went through...anyway, In regards to number 1.... vfr-on-top doesnt necessarily mean "on top" my understanding is that the clearance can be used to not climb into the clouds in the first place... Now, probably the only reason to do that is if your trying to complete a training requirement and dont want to dump the IFR flight plan

[joker]

Joelpry,

 

OK, I understand where you are going with this.

 

You are asking, if it is possible to fly VFR-On-Top underneath a cloud layer tops, thus keeping yourself in the IFR system.

 

For example, say the cloud layer is from 3000-4000. ATC instructs you to fly climb to 3500. You want to know if you can ask for VFR-On-Top and remain at say, 2999.

 

Well, if I understand you right, then I think you have got it wrong. For starters, it wouldn't be called VFR-ON-TOP if it was not on top!

 

VFR-On-Top is a clearance to operate freely 'ON TOP' of a reported layer. 4-4-8( requires that the controller recieves a report from the pilot when reaching VFR-On-Top. Or if the pilot reaches the 'reported tops' but is not VMC, to report that.

 

No, this clearance is not designed to be used how you suggest. The guidance in the AIM and in 71110.65 do not allow for it by requiring a pilot to report reaching the tops.

 

Aim 5-5-13 reiterates this point, by requiring controllers, once the aircraft reports reaching VFR-on-top, to reclear the aircraft to maintain VFR-on-top.

 

OK, so let's say you get that same instruction from ATC, but this time you can see a hole in the clouds. Can you ask to be recleared to 4500 and VFR-On-Top? I guess technically yes - you are able to maintain VFR all the way through.

 

However, although the clearance is still an IFR one, you are essentially VFR-Over-The-Top as your aircraft is not certified IFR. Unless you are absolutely certain that you will be able to find a hole to descend through at your destination, this is totally insane. Particularly in a helicopter where our range is so much less.

 

That's what I thought you meant in my last post.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Joker

[Gomer Pylot]

You don't necessarily have to fly in actual IMC to get on top, or to descend for landing. It's perfectly possible to get a VFR on top clearance and climb before reaching an area of clouds, and descend after passing them. You need to know beyond a doubt that you can do this before accepting the clearance if you are in an aircraft that isn't IFR certified. That's why they issue weather forecasts and observations. It's not always possible, but it certainly is sometimes. As always, judgment is required.

[Copterpilot213]

For #2 a DPE told me that I could count one that I did at night for both my instrument long x-country and my night vfr x-country for commercial. He said it would depend on the DPE's judgement on whether they agreed to that or not. Interesting huh?

 

*Edit* Oh and I forgot to mention, I did a VFR pattern at the end of my flight, not sure if that makes the difference or not.

Edited November 8, 2007 by Copterpilot213

[AngelFire_91]

dont know if my first reply went through...anyway, In regards to number 1.... vfr-on-top doesnt necessarily mean "on top" my understanding is that the clearance can be used to not climb into the clouds in the first place... Now, probably the only reason to do that is if your trying to complete a training requirement and dont want to dump the IFR flight plan

The way I've always understood VFR-on-top is that it allows you to fly in VFR conditions at a VFR cruising altitude on an IFR flight plan, therefore IFR and VFR rules both apply, so technically you should not be going into IMC on an "on-top" clearence. If that is not the case then I've broken the rules more then a couple of times. I've used a VFR-on-top clearence in fixed wing to fly well below the cloud celing but to fly at say 12,500 instead of my filed 14,000 due to turbulence.

 

Please Read in the AIM 4-4-8 f

ATC authorization to "maintain VFR-on-top" is not intended to restrict pilots so that they must operate only above an obscuring meteorological formation (layer). instead, it permits operation above, below, between layers, or in areas where there is no meteorological obscuration. It is imperative, however, that pilots understand that a clearance to operate "VFR-on-top/VFR conditions" does not imply cancellation of the IFR flight plan.

 

I think you guys are getting VFR over the top confused with VFR-on-top. VFR over the top as described in the FAR's Part 1 as:

VFR over the top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over-the-top under VFR when it is not being operated on an IFR flight plan.

Remember also, that the AIM is not regulatory, it's only a guide....a very good one.....but still only a guide.

Edited November 9, 2007 by AngelFire_91

[lelebebbel]

You don't necessarily have to fly in actual IMC to get on top, or to descend for landing. It's perfectly possible to get a VFR on top clearance and climb before reaching an area of clouds, and descend after passing them. You need to know beyond a doubt that you can do this before accepting the clearance if you are in an aircraft that isn't IFR certified. That's why they issue weather forecasts and observations. It's not always possible, but it certainly is sometimes. As always, judgment is required.

 

 

but can you be certain that you can do this? No! What if that chip light comes on while you are over the clouds?

Edited November 9, 2007 by lelebebbel

[joelpry]

Thanks for the reply and the quote from AIM 4-4-8 Angelfire, thats what I remember reading.....

[joker]

Angelfire,

 

No confusion between Over-the-top and On-top. Over-the-Top is a VFR clearance. We are talking about IFR here.

 

You mention AIM 4-4-8 f, which specifically says that you are able to operate wherever there is a clear visibility (which could be between layers, under a layer or normally above a layer). So my last post was incorrect, by suggesting that you require to use this clearance only to fly above an overcast layer.

 

However, the question still remains as to whether you could do this as a means of remaining IFR for your training flight.

 

Well, I suppose in that case, you could. However, whether it is wise to rely on this method is another question. I reiterate that the clearance is not designed for 'training flights' to do this, and in many situations (depending on where the cloud layer is or where you are flying) might not be authorised.

 

As we are talking about helicopters, I'm assuming relatively low cloud layers rather than the layers at 12000'. More about this in a moment.

 

So Joe, your original suggestion appears to be right. I was wrong. Sorry! Again, whether you can rely on this remains to be seen.

 

OK - My reference to 'over-the-top' was that in a non-IFR aircraft, flying above any layer needs careful thought and certainty on your weather at destination. As stressed by both Gomer and lelebebbel. I was trying to think of situations where you might do this kind of thing as routine. Take for example a flight in a mountainous area, where the valley floor is covered in a fog layer. You need to fly from one peak to another. In this case, it would be perfectly acceptable to take either VFR-On-Top or VFR-Over-The-Top.

 

Otherwise, in helicopters, where our operating ceiling is rarely more than 3000AGL, I can't see this being a useful option, regardless of being technically acceptable by AIM 4-4-8 f.

 

Cheers,

 

Joker

[Gomer Pylot]

There is always the possibility of an engine failure, but with turbine engines it's not common, and not something I spend a lot of time worrying about. It does behoove one to know the ceiling underneath the clouds, and to only go over the top of a thin layer, with plenty of room underneath. I wouldn't even consider going over the top of a layer that reached to the ground. As I said above, judgment is always necessary. You have to pick your situations carefully.

[Jeff]

You can operate under IFR in VMC with an aircraft that is not certified for IFR flight provided: 1) The pilot is Instrument Rated and current in that category of aircraft, and 2) the aircraft is equipped for such a flight. For example, a 300CBi with all the flight instruments and a GNS430 is quite capable of operating under IFR; however, it is not certified for flight into IMC or without the sight of the surface. You may use this helicopter for your instrument long cross-country, which must be flown IFR. The stipulation is that your instructor be an instrument-rated instructor and you fly VMC in simulated instrument conditions.

 

VFR-ON-TOP is an IFR clearance. Good reasons to request this clearance is to climb through a low cloud layer, fly a more direct route (if ATC won't otherwise let you do it), or to fly at an altitude of your choice (if ATC won't otherwise let you do it, and you follow VFR cruising altitude regs). When you think VFR-ON-TOP, think ON-TOP of the Earth, not a cloud layer or something. The key in that clearance, as a few of you have already stated, is VFR and IFR at the same time.

 

To answer joelpry's question: No you absolutely cannot use a VFR-ON-TOP clearance for your Instrument Long Cross-Country. With that clearance you have to maintain VFR visibility and cloud clearance requirements, which you cannot do while wearing a view-limiting device.

 

Jeff