Instrument Training Question

[cruise475]

What information has to be included in your log book when you use the simulator/ground trainer for some of the required instrument training. Obviously the amount of time in the sim, does this also count as dual training recieved? Thanks

[Robbyflier]

I find it strange that your instructor hasn't answered this question... but I personally did count it as dual training received.

[joker]

His instructor probably didn't tell him, because he didn't know. (Or he cheated himself.)

 

Anyway, here we go.

 

We only log time in 'to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review', and to show we have gained 'aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience.' This is 61.51(a)(1) and (2)

 

The FAR does not stipulate any other need to log time.

 

61.1((6) defines flight training. My emphasis added.

 

61.1((6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

 

Although your simulator training is 'training time' as defined by FAR 61.51(h)(1), it is not 'in an aircraft'. Therefore it cannot be logged as "flight time" or as "PIC flight time" or as "SIC time" or as "night time" or as "daytime" or as "cross-country time", as these are all required to be done in flight.

 

If you require to log your training in the 'flight simulator' (which you should) then you must add an extra column in your logbook (if it doesn't have one).

 

So far so good.

 

Well, you can go ahead and log it as dual if you want. HOWEVER, I don't think this is useful, as it is not required!

 

This is because the FAR only requires any dual training which is flight training. Any simulator time is specified and permitted separately.

 

Take 61.109 for example. First of all, a quick search will reveal that the word 'Dual' is not even mentioned.

 

Next, notice how each of the secions all start with the words, 'Except for provided in Paragraph K'.

 

Then look closely at 61.109(a)-(n) and you'll see all the other required times concerned are listed as 'flight time' or 'flight training' or 'solo'. Nowhere in those parts does it ask for any 'dual training on the ground!'

 

Only in Paragraph K is the credit for training in a simulator explained. Question. If the sim training was considered flight training, wouldn't it be included earlier rather than in its own 'paragraph k' wording? Again, this is NOT flight training.

 

(Similarly, this is why you need an extra column in your logbook, as training in an FTD / Simulator does not count as the same as flight training ***.)

 

This similar line of reasoning occurs wherever FTD / Sim training is permitted in lieu of 'pilot time' (§ 61.57©(1) and (d)(1)(ii), § 61.58(e), § 61.65(e), § 61.109(i), § 61.129(i), § 61.157(i), § 61.187©(2), etc.)

 

 

***OK, it all starts to get sticky when you talk of Level C and D flight simulators rather than just FTDs or more basic simulators. Level C and D simulators can be used for the purposes of conducting training and testing which would normally require a flight in aircraft. This is because their advanced similarity to the real aircraft. Even so, this still is NOT flight time, and should not be logged as flight time to count towards a certificate or rating.

 

So, in short, my answer to your question would be simply this: Log your time in the simulator as 'FTD/SIM' time and nothing more*

 

This is in keeping with 61.51( which lists the required items to be included in your logbook. Note the specific entry for 'Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device'.

 

61.51( Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General--

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by Sec. 91.109( of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training--

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight--

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.

 

NOW THE EXCEPTION

 

*Notwithstanding instrument training in a simulator, which can also be logged as 'simulated' instrument flight time as per 61.51(g) to meet the requirements of 61.57© and 61.65.

 

In the case of the 61.65 requirements, the maximum simulator time you can use towards your instrument rating is clearly stated.

 

As you specifically mention 'instrument training', then per the requirements of 61.51(g), it would be wise (although not necessary) to additionally log the number and type of approaches.

 

61.51(g)(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of Sec. 61.57© of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook--

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Joker

Edited November 18, 2007 by joker

[Goldy]

Joker-When you answer a post..you REALLY answer a post !

[joker]

Goldy! LoL.

 

Joker-When you answer a post..you REALLY answer a post !

 

I do it for myself mostly. Helps me to clear up my own understanding (or mis-understanding). I have long days with bugger all to do. Also, it's like riding a bike - the more you do it, the easier it gets; all the references become quicker to find. Lastly, I can touch-type as fast as I can think (almost).

 

I know that often I am wrong. It's been a long time. So everybody,please read my posts with a pinch of salt. I welcome anyone to straigten me out.

 

This last one was easy - just a regurgitation of John Lynch's answer.

 

I wonder if Rey could dump all my posts to a spreadsheet. It could make quite a reference volume as I find myself repeating things these days! I must ask him.

 

Joker

 

Added: In fact, looking through my logbook, I find that I didn't even log my Sim time as 'Simulated' Instrument, let alone 'Dual Received'.

Edited November 19, 2007 by joker

[kodoz]

I got a follow-on question Joker (and it's probably splitting hairs, but it came up recently):

 

If you do a simulated (or actual) instrument flight after sunset, do you log that only as simulated instrument, or do you log it as both simulated instrument and night? The 2 arguments were:

1. Yes, log both instrument and night if the flight was conducted per 61.57's definition of night. The FARs don't indicate that you can/should only specify one condition of flight.
   
2. No, the intent of the regulations is to log "only what the pilot sees". If you're under the hood, you cannot also log night time.
   

--c

[joker]

Kodoz,

 

I haven't got my usual references, but I would say your first assertation is correct.

 

"...log both instrument and night if the flight was conducted per 61.57's definition of night."

Log your instrument (in an aircraft at night) both as instrument, and night time.

 

I guess the view is that you still are bound by the all the night rules, need a flashlight in your cockpit and might be tired and cold!

 

Joker

[Jeff]

What information has to be included in your log book when you use the simulator/ground trainer for some of the required instrument training. Obviously the amount of time in the sim, does this also count as dual training recieved? Thanks

 

Cruise,

 

IAW 14 CFR 61.51(h), you may log dual training received in a simulator. When I am in the Sim, I log all the necessary header info (date, location, etc.) plus category and class, simulator time, simulated instrument, dual received, and total time. Of course approaches too.

 

Jeff

[Jeff]

I got a follow-on question Joker (and it's probably splitting hairs, but it came up recently):

 

If you do a simulated (or actual) instrument flight after sunset, do you log that only as simulated instrument, or do you log it as both simulated instrument and night? The 2 arguments were:

1. Yes, log both instrument and night if the flight was conducted per 61.57's definition of night. The FARs don't indicate that you can/should only specify one condition of flight.
   
2. No, the intent of the regulations is to log "only what the pilot sees". If you're under the hood, you cannot also log night time.
   

--c

 

c,

 

If you were to log "only what the pilot sees", you would log night and simulated instrument at the same time if you were flying under the hood at night. My logic is this: While flying under the hood, or with foggles or whatever, can you determine on your own (with absolutely no help or hints from anyone) whether it is light or dark outside? Remember, don't look out the window either!

 

Jeff

[Jeff]

Here is another similar question...

 

Is it legal to log Actual Instrument time in VMC? Consider this: You're flying 25 miles offshore over the Gulf of Mexico, winds are light and variable, visibility unrestricted, ceiling 10,000 overcast, time 2.5 hours after official sunset.

 

Jeff

[fast03cobra]

Simulator time (Either Helicopter or Fixed Wing) HAS to be logged as dual received, as it requires an instructor (either CFII or Advanced Ground Instructor) to be counted towards a rating. Also you can not log Simulated Instrument as you are not flying with a view limiting device, also you can not log Cross Country, Night, Landings... You can log our approaches, and total time, and of course simulator.

 

The one I'm not sure about is if the Simulator was a Turbine model aircraft, can you log turbine time? If it's a helicopter simulator you can log rotorcraft time...

[Gomer Pylot]

If you can't see a horizon, or surface lights sufficient to control the helicopter, you're IMC. 25 miles offshore in the GOM may or may not qualify. There are areas with literally hundreds of platforms, lit up like a city. And there are areas without a light anywhere. I have logged time offshore as both instrument and night, when the conditions were technically VMC, but there was no way at all to control the helicopter except by use of the instruments. My advice is to use common sense with this stuff.

 

Simulator time doesn't have to be logged as dual received. I've logged it as PIC time, because it was a level D sim, and I was being checked, not trained. It's possible to do your entire rating for some aircraft in the sim, including the PIC checkride. You can log the time just as if it were in the actual aircraft, and your rating is as valid as if you had done it in the aircraft.

[joker]

Guys,

 

(Gomer, I reserve my answers for Level C and D sims. More about that another day.)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Logging FTD as Dual Time

 

In my earlier post I said, "Well, you can go ahead and log it as dual if you want." I also said, "your simulator training is 'training time' as defined by FAR 61.51(h)(1)."

 

I stand by both of those statements. I also stand by my statemement that whether you log this as Dual or not, it should NOT count towards your 'total flight time'. This is because it is not FLIGHT time.

 

So, if you count dual towards your totals, then you must not log it as Dual. If you split these totals, then go ahead. So long as it doesn't count towards your total flight time.

 

Whether you do or don't, who cares. Jeff, 61.51(h) simply describes how training (in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device) should be logged. It doesn't prove that this is 'Dual flight training (as most undestand the word dual)'.

 

61.51((2) lists the different kinds of piloting time. Where does 'dual' appear here? Note the specific reference in (v) to "Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Logging Night and Instrument at the Same time

 

If you were to log "only what the pilot sees", you would log night and simulated instrument at the same time if you were flying under the hood at night.

 

I don't understand your sentence and following logic. Is there a word 'not' missing?

 

I'm not sure where the idea came from that the regulations have an 'intent' that the pilot logs 'only what he sees'.

 

61.51((3) lists the loggable conditions of flight.

 

(3) Conditions of flight--

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.

 

The definitions of these have to be found elsewhere.

 

For day / night then you'll find this in FAR 1.1 Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time. Whether you stick to the 61.57 definition (1 hour after and before etc..- this is probably easier) is up to you. .

 

The only place where 'instrument time' is defined is 61.51(g)

 

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

 

It is totally possible that your flight can meet both of the two conditions at the same time, so I propose that it is permissible to log both night and instrument at the same time.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Logging Actual Instrument Time In VMC

 

OK - Where does it say you need to log 'Actual Instrument Time' or 'Simulated Instrument Time'? Where in any of the aeronautical experience sections of the FAR, does it specify a requirement for Actual Instrument Time or Simulated Instrument Time?

It doesn't. For example, the wording of the FAR for the Rotorcraft-Commercial it simply says,"10 hours of instrument training in an aircraft"." So it is irrelevant whether the instrument flight time is logged as "actual instrument time" or "simulated instrument time.

Again, look at 61.51(g)(1). This only defines the logging of 'Instrument Time' in either of the conditions.

 

61.51((3) separates the difference in the conditions. The words 'actual' and 'simulated' concern the conditions, not the instrument time.

So the real question is whether these are 'actual' or 'simulated' instrument conditions.

 

Well, simulated instrument is suggested to be intentional limiting of the pilot's view, normally by a hood or by screen covers. This is logically supported by 61.45(d) and 91.109, and of course, by the definition of the word 'simulated'. Jeff's scenario definitely is not intentional. This is not 'simulated instrument time'.

 

So we need to decide whether this is actual instrument or not.

 

Gomer has suggested that you are IMC whenever you don't have a discernable horizion. I think this is incorrectly interchanging the term IMC for Actual Instrument Conditions. IMC is defined by the weather as per the only definition I can find in FAR 170.3

 

Instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) means weather conditions below the minimums prescribed for flight under Visual Flight Rules (VFR).

 

This quite clearly suggests that 91.155 is the determining factor as to whether you are in IMC or not. 91.155 defines the weather for VFR.

 

Although that would be a sensible way of deciding whether you are in actual instrument conditions or not we are not bound by that as our definition of 'actual' instrument conditions.

 

In otherwords, conditions may exist where you are not IMC, but depending on your position in the weather around you, you must use your instruments to safely control the aircraft. Could these be considered 'actaul instrument conditions'? I think yes. There is no rule that defines this. It is subjective and up to the pilot to determine that he must fly with SOLE reference to the instruments or not to maintain safe flight.

 

In Jeff's scenario, assuming the pilot's honest opinion that he must fly with SOLE reference, the conditions were Actual Instruement conditions. Therefore, he could log this as Instrument Flight in Actual Instrument Conditions.

That would agree with Gomer. Common sense is required. My advice to him would be to note what the conditions are though, just in case we needed to prove the legitimacy of logging this as instrument time. In addition, I don't think it would be wise to do this lightly. It would look stupid if you had only 1000 total hours and 500 instrument! Remember the key words, SOLE REFERENCE. This means, looking outside gives you NO cues as to your orientation.

 

Well, that's food for thought!

 

Joker

 

Disclaimer: I have read arugments both for and against what I have said about logging Instrument in VMC. There is an FAA Chief Council decision which runs similar to mine. There is an AOPA article which is totally opposite! In fact, it seems different ICAO contracting states can't agree, as where I fly, I am not allowed to log this time as instrument, even though we are flying on dark moonless nights over water etc..etc.. So I have looked at the FAA regulations and given an opinon. So decide what you will. As always, what I write is with no legal basis whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2007 by joker

[Goldy]

Disclaimer- This is a computer, so no trees were harmed during the recent post by Joker. Should you feel the need to print this document, thousands of trees will be felled, clear cut, up and down the coast. So many 18 wheelers will be needed to haul the logs, that carbon dioxide credits will have to be purchased to offset their exhaust. Oh, and that poor owl that was living in the top of the tree....he will have to be re-located to a shelter. My advice to you, dont do pushovers in an R22 and stay away from the print button.

 

Goldy

[cruise475]

Thank you to all who answered! Joker specifically, I read the forms alot and learn alot from you.

 

Joker was right with the reason I asked the question. I got a differant answer from differant instructors. Some said log dual time, some said don't long dual time ect.. I think someone mentioned the Simulated Instrument also.

 

I think I am going to stick to the basics.

I do not really see a benefit to logging dual time on top of the sim time. Maybe I am wrong on this one?

 

Again thanks alot!

 

P.S. Goldy that was great

Edited November 21, 2007 by cruise475

[Gomer Pylot]

Whether you call it IMC, instrument conditions, or princess sparkle pony, you can log the time as instrument time if you fly the aircraft by instruments. Semantics are a waste of time, IMO. And it's my logbook, so I'll log what I think is right. I don't worry about noting the precise conditions - nobody is going to try to question the time, or prove that I didn't fly by reference to instruments, or whether it was dark.

 

AOPA has always had a few people with a less than firm grasp on reality, which is why I quit them about 20 years ago.

 

And finally, this thread always was in reference to the US and FAA regulation, at least in my mind. Every country has its own bureaucracy and rules, and I have enough trouble keeping up with the FAA's gyrations, nevermind those of every other country in the world.

[EC120AV8R]

Whether you call it IMC, instrument conditions, or princess sparkle pony, you can log the time as instrument time if you fly the aircraft by instruments. Semantics are a waste of time, IMO. And it's my logbook, so I'll log what I think is right. I don't worry about noting the precise conditions - nobody is going to try to question the time, or prove that I didn't fly by reference to instruments, or whether it was dark.

 

AOPA has always had a few people with a less than firm grasp on reality, which is why I quit them about 20 years ago.

 

And finally, this thread always was in reference to the US and FAA regulation, at least in my mind. Every country has its own bureaucracy and rules, and I have enough trouble keeping up with the FAA's gyrations, nevermind those of every other country in the world.

 

I just got the new log book that includes the "Princess Sparkle Pony" column. The problem is, there's absolutely no way to differntiate between dual or PIC Princess Sparkle Pony time.

[Jeff]

Simulator time (Either Helicopter or Fixed Wing) HAS to be logged as dual received, as it requires an instructor (either CFII or Advanced Ground Instructor) to be counted towards a rating. Also you can not log Simulated Instrument as you are not flying with a view limiting device, also you can not log Cross Country, Night, Landings... You can log our approaches, and total time, and of course simulator.

 

The one I'm not sure about is if the Simulator was a Turbine model aircraft, can you log turbine time? If it's a helicopter simulator you can log rotorcraft time...

 

Simulator time does not HAVE to be logged as dual received. 14 CFR 61.51(h)(1) says, "A person MAY log training time...." (emphasis added)

 

Also, 14 CFR 61.51(g)(4) says, "A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight." It does not say that the instructor must sign your logbook, just that he or she is present.

 

 

Joker,

 

Logging Night and Instrument at the Same time

 

 

QUOTE

If you were to log "only what the pilot sees", you would log night and simulated instrument at the same time if you were flying under the hood at night.

 

 

I don't understand your sentence and following logic. Is there a word 'not' missing?

 

I'm not sure where the idea came from that the regulations have an 'intent' that the pilot logs 'only what he sees'.

 

 

In that post by kodoz, he offered two possible options for determining whether or not one could log night and instrument at the same time. I was merely illustrating that both options 1 and 2 yielded the same results.

 

 

In general,

 

If you are logging simulator time for the purposed of obtaining a rating, you should log it as "simulator", "simulated instrument", and "dual received". 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(i) requires, "at least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought." If you are to accomplish this training in a simulator, you must log it as dual. (I understand certain simulators are authorized for this training.)

 

If you are using a simulator only for instrument currency, you do not need to log dual.

 

If you are not seeking a rating or currency, log whatever you want--or nothing at all.

 

~Jeff