Fixed wing habits

[SquirrelFlight]

Hi there,

 

I'm still working on my helicopter private add-on. I about 250 fixed wing hours, which seem to include some habits that are disrupting my training a little bit. As it is probable that I will be taking the CFI route to get the hours for a job, I thought it might be a good idea to catalog the airplane habits I've found which are slowing me down. It is possible I'll end up training someone like myself, and it would be good to know ahead of time how to deal with it.

 

First of all, for the dual-rated guys/girls out there, do you have any difficulty maintaining two sets of habits? I'd like to maintain my dual rating and I'm worried that as I "unlearn" some of these habits in favor of the helicopter habits, I might be degrading my airplane reflexes. Is this the case or am I worrying over nothing?

 

Now, onto airplane habits, feel free to contribute any that you know of that I missed.:

 

1) Too heavy on tail-rotor pedals. In an airplane, the foot-pedals move a fairly large rudder which has a fair amount of aerodynamic force pushing it back to its center position. Thus it is often necessary to maintain a certain amount of pressure on the pedals for a given attitude. I've found that I'm very foot heavy on the pedals. To correct this, I'm trying to keep my feet off the pedals completely, and gently tapping the pedals as necessary. I'll phase this out as I gain the finesse needed, but for the time being it seems to work.

 

2) Flare height/leveling a normal approach. My normal approaches are pretty good until I get around the 50 foot point. At this point, my approach seems to invariably level out, requiring much more action than should be necessary to get to the touchdown point. At the same time, my airspeed suddenly starts coming back much faster than normal. It seems to me that this is also an airplane habit. In the Cessnas I used to fly, the 50' point is pretty close to when I begin rounding out for the landing flare. Thus, the airspeed drops, and my descent levels. No way around this exept to practice, practice, practice.

 

3) Forward stick for a mainwheel landing. One of the last things I did as a fixed wing pilot was to get my tailwheel endorsement. The interfering habit here is that when you land a tailwheel airplane on the main wheels (with the tail still flying), it is normal, after touching down, to come forward on your stick to keep the tail in the air while groundspeed bleeds off. Once you get full forward, the tail will drop, then you come aft stick to keep pressure on the wheel. I have just started doing shallow approaches and running landings and have found that this habit is causing me to come forward cyclic upon touchdown, which extends my landing much farther than it should be. Again, no real fix here except for more practice.

 

Okay, these are the big ones I can think of right now. What else have I missed?

[Helo-Pilot]

I think that what has helped me is the mindset that we fly different airframes. Some of the 172's that I have flown have had electric flaps, whlie others have the e-brake style handle.

 

Try this. List all of the different aircraft that you fly on 3x5 index cards. Include all of the V speeds for that aircraft, and any particular characteristics that each has. You can even list them by catagory if you need. When you go for a flight, you can review each before and 'refresh' your memory on each. You can even carry them with you when flying.

[AngelFire_91]

Coming from someone that flip flops almost on a daily basis, I don't think it's too much of a problem. I think over time if you continue to fly both it will happen. I did have to un-learn a lot of my airplane habits in the begining, my biggest by far was leading a turn with rudder pressure. But I think with practice you'll find it easier and eaiser to do. I usually just kind of remind my-self right before I fly, "Ok, Airplane mode." or "Ok, Helicopter mode." and I usually don't have too many problems anymore, but it did take me some time to get there, so just keep it up and it will eventually get eaiser.

 

I also do the flash card style refresher, but I usually write it down on the checklist. I have nice checklists that I wrote the information on the back and then laminated so I have good reference no matter which aircraft I fly, My information usually includes Vspeeds, Fuel loading, and any interesting characteristics I should be aware of, (We have one 172 that will always try to spin to the right in a stall, so I simply have "4DW Stall Right, 807 left drop flap, etc..." and in the Helicopters I make sure to always put Weight and Balance limits on it. This helps out greatly when I am constently changing aircraft.

[Goldy]

1) Too heavy on tail-rotor pedals. In an airplane, the foot-pedals move a fairly large rudder which has a fair amount of aerodynamic force pushing it back to its center position. Thus it is often necessary to maintain a certain amount of pressure on the pedals for a given attitude. I've found that I'm very foot heavy on the pedals. To correct this, I'm trying to keep my feet off the pedals completely, and gently tapping the pedals as necessary. I'll phase this out as I gain the finesse needed, but for the time being it seems to work.

 

This changes with each type helicopter. If you fly a Bell 47 you will need 3X the pressure and travel on the pedals than you use in an R22. I would NEVER take my feet off the pedals....just learn to stay light on them...dont put your weight on them. In a light helo, one lil wind gust will come get you, and you have to jump on the pedals pretty quick..not to mention if you ever had to do an auto.

 

A FW friend has a hard time wanting to push over to avoid stalls...he freaks a bit when I let the airspeed drop to zero!! Hey, thats called a HOVER !

[SquirrelFlight]

This changes with each type helicopter. If you fly a Bell 47 you will need 3X the pressure and travel on the pedals than you use in an R22. I would NEVER take my feet off the pedals....just learn to stay light on them...dont put your weight on them. In a light helo, one lil wind gust will come get you, and you have to jump on the pedals pretty quick..not to mention if you ever had to do an auto.

 

A FW friend has a hard time wanting to push over to avoid stalls...he freaks a bit when I let the airspeed drop to zero!! Hey, thats called a HOVER !

 

I don't completely move my feet *away* from the pedals - they're still over them, just not on. Like I said, once I train myself to the level of finesse I need, I'll do away with it... it's a means to an end. One problem I had learning fixed wing was proper flare timing - I was always too fast, so I spent a month doing all my approaches without flaps to force myself to slow down. It's just an initial training thing. :-)

[SquirrelFlight]

Coming from someone that flip flops almost on a daily basis, I don't think it's too much of a problem. I think over time if you continue to fly both it will happen. I did have to un-learn a lot of my airplane habits in the begining, my biggest by far was leading a turn with rudder pressure. But I think with practice you'll find it easier and eaiser to do. I usually just kind of remind my-self right before I fly, "Ok, Airplane mode." or "Ok, Helicopter mode." and I usually don't have too many problems anymore, but it did take me some time to get there, so just keep it up and it will eventually get eaiser.

 

I also do the flash card style refresher, but I usually write it down on the checklist. I have nice checklists that I wrote the information on the back and then laminated so I have good reference no matter which aircraft I fly, My information usually includes Vspeeds, Fuel loading, and any interesting characteristics I should be aware of, (We have one 172 that will always try to spin to the right in a stall, so I simply have "4DW Stall Right, 807 left drop flap, etc..." and in the Helicopters I make sure to always put Weight and Balance limits on it. This helps out greatly when I am constently changing aircraft.

 

This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Thanks (to Goldy, too)!

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Well, it will come with time. You will soon see that even every helicopter is different. Take the EC130B4 vs the AS350. The EC130 in cruise flight has a fair amount of left pedal needed to stay in trim. Most helicopters like the R-22 and AS350, the pedals are pretty much centered in cruise flight. That is just one example.

 

Just take a second before flying to think in your head what aircraft you are flying and how it handles. Then just fly the aircraft. If it needs more of something or less of something, just do it. Sounds like a Nike commercial, but it's true.

 

What you were describing your approach, that is quite common with airplane to helicopter pilots. You are so used doing something over and over the same way. You will get out of that habbit soon enough.

 

I like the idea of the flash cards. I do something close to that. I made my own copies of the aircraft check list with emergency procedures and speed references. I will review this checklist before I start my flying for the day or before I change to a different aircraft type. This will help prevent negitive transfer of information. Information which may be relevant for one aircraft but not another, so the checklist helps with that.

 

JD

Edited February 16, 2008 by JDHelicopterPilot

[SunHelo Paul]

I had nearly 14,000 hours in everything from little taildraggers to fairly large turboprops and jets before I started flying helicopters. I've found that my worst airplane habit is making comparatively large control movements, particularly at slow speeds. Helicopters, by comparison, need only tiny pressures for most maneuvers.

 

One airplane habit that serves well in helicopters too is to just make the aircraft do what you want it to do, whatever it takes.

[SquirrelFlight]

One airplane habit that serves well in helicopters too is to just make the aircraft do what you want it to do, whatever it takes.

 

My instructor regularly makes the comment that "that was a pretty horrible approach, but you made it work in the end". Of course, once I'm able to make the approach regularly, that'll be a big improvement, too (I'm working on it!)

 

Actually, did my first solo today and things didn't look too bad.

[lelebebbel]

I'd imagine that emergency situations could be the critical thing.

When the stall warning horn comes on, do you push the yoke all the way forward before you realize it's actually the RPM warning horn, the cyclic, and you're in a R22 that is now seperated from it's main rotor?

[WingsToRotors]

One fixed wing habit I've had trouble overcoming is pulling back slightly on the 'stick' whenever I start a turn. In both fixed wing and rotorcraft, we have to compensate for the loss of some of our vertical lift as it shifts toward the inside of the turn. In an airplane (especially with stick controls) you move the stick to the side and (after a while) don't even realize that you're pulling aft to maintain altitude. I'm still working on moving the cyclic straight to the side and lifting the collective to maintain altitude. For a long time I'd slow down as I started into a turn because I'd always add a little aft cyclic.

 

I've got no suggestion about how to overcome this tendency other than to be aware of it and practice, practice, practice.

[mountainchopper]

I'd agree with goldy on this one and keep your feet on the pedals. I've taught a few fixed wing-to-helo people, and even two ch-47-to-robbie pilots. Fixed wing guys do seem to have a problem with the pedals but the main thing they do is use the cyclic to descend as opposed to the collective. Also they pull back on the cyclic in turns as opposed to raising collective, the thing I try to get across is that you are doing the saem thing but with a different technique. As far as a low rotor RPM induced mast bump issue, the first thing I get into their heads is what to do correctly when the horn goes off, and some helicopters don't even have the horn so that isn't as much of an issue. the ch-47 drivers? well they aren't quite used to bite-sized manuverability and power, and every helicopter is slightly different and has its own growing pains.

Edited February 17, 2008 by mountainchopper

[joker]

In addition, maybe someone can find a copy (or copy the text) of the R22 Safety Notice.

 

It applies to all fixed wing pilots and all helicopters.

 

I would do it myself, but too busy.

 

Joker

[AngelFire_91]

One fixed wing habit I've had trouble overcoming is pulling back slightly on the 'stick' whenever I start a turn. In both fixed wing and rotorcraft, we have to compensate for the loss of some of our vertical lift as it shifts toward the inside of the turn. In an airplane (especially with stick controls) you move the stick to the side and (after a while) don't even realize that you're pulling aft to maintain altitude. I'm still working on moving the cyclic straight to the side and lifting the collective to maintain altitude. For a long time I'd slow down as I started into a turn because I'd always add a little aft cyclic.

 

I've got no suggestion about how to overcome this tendency other than to be aware of it and practice, practice, practice.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that problem, I had that problem real bad. Still do to this day. About all I can do is watch the airspeed and just keep telling myself, "No! No! get your hand forward."

[nocarsgo]

If I were to down the line get my fixed wing add on, what are some bad habits that helo pilots have when learning in an airplane?

[TheLorax]

don't take your feet off the pedals...?

[Rob Lyman]

If I were to down the line get my fixed wing add on, what are some bad habits that helo pilots have when learning in an airplane?

 

The most common error I see with helicopter pilots transitioning to fixed wing is a slowing down on final. Maintaining airspeed from downwind to just prior to final is pretty much the same in both. You set your nose attitude for the airspeed you want, trim, cross check airpseed and alititude, repeat...

 

However, on final, it is VERY common to have the helicopter pilot drop 5 - 10 kts on final before getting to the threshold. It probably doesn't feel natural to keep the nose down as you descend in a helicopter when approaching for a landing. But for an airplane, this is necessary. In fact, as you lower flaps in an airplane, the nose attitude may need to be lowered even more just to maintain airspeed. If you did this (lowered the nose) in a helicopter, it would accelerate (or at least not decelerate) while on final. No matter how much I coach them, they almost always increase the back pressure on the yoke or stick ever so slightly and bleed off a few knots of airpseed. It can be a very hard habit to break.

 

This leads to the second most common error I see....the round-out and flair. The error above almost always leads to varying airspeed as you cross the threshold. If your airspeed is different each time you flair to land an airplane, the control movement required to affect a smooth flair is going to change for each landing. Too slow and the aircraft mushes and lands hard. Too fast and the aircraft floats or levels off high.

[volition]

One fixed wing habit I've had trouble overcoming is pulling back slightly on the 'stick' whenever I start a turn. In both fixed wing and rotorcraft, we have to compensate for the loss of some of our vertical lift as it shifts toward the inside of the turn. In an airplane (especially with stick controls) you move the stick to the side and (after a while) don't even realize that you're pulling aft to maintain altitude. I'm still working on moving the cyclic straight to the side and lifting the collective to maintain altitude. For a long time I'd slow down as I started into a turn because I'd always add a little aft cyclic.

 

I've got no suggestion about how to overcome this tendency other than to be aware of it and practice, practice, practice.

 

Hehehe....That's my biggest one!!

[Kelly N.]

In addition, maybe someone can find a copy (or copy the text) of the R22 Safety Notice.

 

It applies to all fixed wing pilots and all helicopters.

 

I would do it myself, but too busy.

 

Joker

 

It's SN-29 from the R22 POH "Airplane Pilots high risk when flying Helicopters". I can copy the text later tonight if no one else has done it by then.

 

Kelly

[IFLY]

I flew gliders mostly and had the same problems. Pulling back stick in turns, moving the stick too fast and too far, centering the pedals in cruise, and using lots of pedal in turns were my worst habits. Autos never bothered me (except for the R redline) because if I am high on final I can make a glider drop at over 1K fpm to get to the runway and it takes the same terrain and space as a hangglider to land, just gets there faster.

It took about 30 - 40 hours to get them mostly fixed, at the 150 hour mark everything became a habit depending on what I was flying, I do exactly like what SunHelo said "just make the aircraft do what you want it to do, whatever it takes".

 

Jerry

[joker]

If you want something done properly....

 

Anyway, here's a link to a similar thread that came up about a year ago!

 

http

://verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...st&p=39383

Joker

[Kelly N.]

If you want something done properly....

 

Anyway, here's a link to a similar thread that came up about a year ago!

 

http

://verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...st&p=39383

Joker

 

 

Heh, I could say that I saw this and, subsequently didn't type in the SN myself. Of course, that would be a bit off from the reality of the situation where I just worked late and forgot that I was going to do this.

 

Thanks for posting the link (and the original) Joker.

 

Kelly