What instruments are required to train IFR?

[helifire136]

I have gone through the FAR/AIM inside and out and i still cannot find a definite answer. I know what instruments are required to fly IFR, but what i am looking for is the minimum equipment required to train instrument students. I'm sure i have just overlooked it so if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated...

[HelliBoy]

I have gone through the FAR/AIM inside and out and i still cannot find a definite answer. I know what instruments are required to fly IFR, but what i am looking for is the minimum equipment required to train instrument students. I'm sure i have just overlooked it so if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated...

 

The instruments required to fly IFR are the same as those required to train to take the instrument checkride. This is because of what is commonly called the Long File. If you're filing IFR, which you're required to do to take the checkride, you have to have the instruments intstalled. Remember, IFR means Instrument Flight RULES, if you're filing youve gotta obey the IFRules which include the required instruments.

However, you can log instrument training without those instruments (at least by my FSDO), I've given the 10 hours of instrument instruction required for a commercial ticket in a VFR aircraft (no AI, TC, or HSI) with the student wearing foggles and watching the compass, airspeed indicator, and altimeter.

[ADRidge]

Gyro, HSI, DME (or simulated DME), sensitive altimeter, Attitude Indicator... the whole shebang. I've only been in instrument ground for a few days, so if I've left alot out (quite likely) please forgive me.

 

Heliboy, your FSDO must be alooooot nicer than ours!

[AngelFire_91]

Yeah, It's all in 91.205(d)

 

I like to use the Acronym, GRABCARD

 

So, All your VFR equipment. "TOMATO FLAMES," "MAT FOOLS MATE," Or however else you like to remember it.

Plus

 

Generator / Alternator

Radio / Navigation equipment

Altimeter (Sensitive, meaning Kollsman)

Ball (Inclinometer)

Clock with second hand

Attitude indicator

Rate of turn

Directional Gyro

 

I too however have done the IFR requirements for Commercial without being in an IFR equipped Heli, but only because you are not actually filing IFR.

[Gomer Pylot]

There is almost always a difference between legal and practical requirements. If you're going to give instrument instruction, you need to have a well-equipped aircraft, to give your students decent training. Training with only the basic required equipment is short-changing the students. That doesn't stop people from doing it, though.

[helifire136]

My FSDO must be even nicer because neither my Instrument nor CFII required me to actually file IFR. Correct me as i may be wrong but the PTS only requires you to simulate filing. I have filed IFR in a non-certified aircraft and understand that you may file IFR as long as you can maintain VFR.

 

I am familiar with the GRABCARD and other acronyms but as far as i can tell there is no reg specifically stating the required instruments to train. Gomer Pylot i think your pretty much right. It is legal to give below par instrument instruction but where it is going to get you is the part that states the instructor must decide that the student is ready for and can pass the practical test. Even with this said Part 61.45 b1 states that "an aircraft used for a practical test must have- the equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test." The PT requires at least one precision approach, one non precision, simulated no giro, and holding amongst other things. therefore you must have a DG with some sort of glide slope, rate of turn, slip/skid etc. I was just hoping for a specific part that is cut and dry.

 

The deal is someone has a 300C that they want to convert to an instrument trainer. their question to me was which instruments he must purchase. I was lucky and trained in a brand new 300C with a Garmin 530, HSI, and all the other fancy instruments. He definitely wants to give adequate instruction, but im not sure he wants to spend that kind of money. What do you guys feel would be an acceptable setup?

 

Big thanks to all of you for your prompt response. You have all been more than helpful!

[HelliBoy]

There is almost always a difference between legal and practical requirements. If you're going to give instrument instruction, you need to have a well-equipped aircraft, to give your students decent training. Training with only the basic required equipment is short-changing the students. That doesn't stop people from doing it, though.

 

I hope you're not refering to doing the 10 hours of instrument training in a VFR heli, if you are I disagree with you for the following reasons:

 

1. There are no instrument equiped training helicopters within 300 miles of me. I consider it shortchanging the student to tell him, 'sorry bub you're outta luck- go to florida for a month.'

 

2. If they dont intend to get an IFR rating then I think all those bells and whistles in an IFR helicopter would lull a VFR pilot into a false sense of confidence with their 10 hours of basics. If they go IIMC they are going to be lucky to get out alive regardless of what type of equipment they had during those 10 hours of basics. If that 10 hours makes them feel like they can push their weather minimums one iota then its harmful anyways. This is the point I argued to the FSDO to get them to let me do this and they agreed. Just look at how many IFR rated high time commercial pilots go IIMC in an IFR helicopter and end up just as dead as a 175 hour commercial pilot with 10 hours instrument training. I can give you a pile of accident reports where the former is the victim more times than the latter, and its because of overconfidence and lack of recurrent training.

 

3. Not everyone aspires to your Sky God status.

[Witch]

Two words: Air Plane

 

Later

[captkirkyota]

Yeah, It's all in 91.205(d)

 

 

So, All your VFR equipment. "TOMATO FLAMES," "MAT FOOLS MATE," Or however else you like to remember it.

 

Never heard these acronyms before, can you please detail them?

I may find it useful to have something different that the way I learned them for when I become a CFI.

Thanks.

[Gomer Pylot]

I was referring to training for an instrument rating. And I ain't no sky god. I'm just a guy who has survived for a lot of years.

 

I would also hate to see a copilot show up who had an instrument ticket but had never even filed an IFR flight plan. That's simply poor training.

[helifire136]

Gomer i agree 100% I mean your never going to fly IFR without filing. unless you screw up and get into IIMC that is. In which case your really in trouble. If i had it my way we would file every flight. Not only is it good IFR experience, it also gets students more comfortable in dealing with Center and Approach Control which in turn gets them more comfortable in Class B airspace. Its good all the way around the only downside is that it can be somewhat time consuming...

[HelliBoy]

would also hate to see a copilot show up who had an instrument ticket but had never even filed an IFR flight plan. That's simply poor training.

 

its impossible to have an instrument ticket without having ever have filed an IFR flight plan. That was the whole point of this thread; you cant take the checkride without having filed for your 'long file' and you cant file IFR without an IFR compliant aircraft.

[helifire136]

its impossible to have an instrument ticket without having ever have filed an IFR flight plan. That was the whole point of this thread; you cant take the checkride without having filed for your 'long file' and you cant file IFR without an IFR compliant aircraft.

 

 

Actually Helliboy there is nothing that prohibits you from filing IFR in a non IFR aircraft as long as you can maintain VFR. If on an IFR flight plan and ATC gives you a clearance that is going to put you into below VFR WX minimums simply advise that the clearance will not allow you to maintain VFR and cancel your IFR flight plan. First thing about being an IFR compliant aircraft is that the manufacturer certifies the aircraft for IFR. Now i dont know much about the Robbies but good luck finding a 300 that is certified... Now tell me about the long file. Where in 61.65 does it state that you must actually file IFR? The closest thing i can come up with is that In a helicopter you must do one XC flight under IFR that consists of a distance of atleast 100 nautical along airways or ATC direct routing. If i have looked over anything please correct me as i have been wrong in the past. Heck i learn something new everyday!

 

Even with this said i am a firm believer in filing IFR. Not only does it help students with instrument flying, its a huge help when dealing with Center and approach which in turn helps them in a busy class B..

[joker]

First thing about being an IFR compliant aircraft is that the manufacturer certifies the aircraft for IFR. Now i dont know much about the Robbies but good luck finding a 300 that is certified... .

 

Huh, so how do you explain this? I did my long filed IFR in a helicopter (R22) and most people I know did too!

 

61.65d(iv) For an instrument -- helicopter rating, instrument training specific to helicopters on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a helicopter that is performed under IFR

 

1. To get your instrument rating, you must have flown under IFR.

 

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Where in 61.65 does it state that you must actually file IFR?

Actually nowhere in 61.65. There requirement for filing a flight plan is found in 91.173b

 

Sec. 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required. - No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has--

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

( Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

2. To fly under IFR in controlled airspace, an IFR flight plan must have been filed and a clearance received.

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91.205(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

91.411(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless--

 

3. Your equipment must comply with the required equipment for IFR as stipulated in part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413.

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What do the limitations sections of each aircraft POH say about IFR flight? (he he!)

 

Joker

Edited June 10, 2008 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

Someone must have filed an IFR flight plan, but not necessarily the student. It's also entirely possible to get a popup IFR clearance, and filing the flight plan consists of giving ATC whatever information they ask for. I've done many popup IFR flights, and I've been PIC on many IFR flights for which I didn't file the flight plan. It's a very hazy system, and all you really need is a clearance, however you get it. It's possible to debate technicalities all day, but they're just technicalities.

[jehh]

Just curious, but how are you all filing IFR in piston helicopters that are not approved for IFR?

 

I recall a thread here awhile back about how the FAA was overlooking this one, but in the 300CBi POH, it clearly states "Flight under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Prohibited". It does not say IMC, it says rules, so filing and accepting a clearance is illegal, is it not?

 

The Robinson POHs state approval for VFR day and night, but not IFR...

 

If anyone has something in writing from the FAA, it would be appreciated...

[joker]

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...ost&p=54192

 

Gomer will remember this thread some time ago, which has my answer to the question.

 

It's possible to debate technicalities all day, but they're just technicalities.

...but Gomer, you know I love to debate technicalities...its technicalities which stuff you up the a*&* when you're least expecting it!

 

 

Joker

Edited June 10, 2008 by joker

[jehh]

Thanks for the reply Joker... I recall reading that awhile back, but didn't save the reference...