Jump to content


Helicopter AcademyMountainRidgeHeliVRFT468FRASCA FT200UpperLimit468VRFTForum
Photo
- - - - -

Accidental IMC


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 slick1537

slick1537

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 463 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 February 2009 - 12:01

Wow, listen to this guy.



Edited by slick1537, 03 February 2009 - 12:02.


#2 Justin DBC

Justin DBC

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 255 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Beach, CA
  • Interests:Flying, Hiking, Weight Lifting, Marksmanship, Martial Arts, Music
  • Company working for:CA Army National Guard

Posted 03 February 2009 - 12:44

Inadvertent IMC procedures.... PANIC!!!!

Some people should not be flying. I don't think he kept his licence for very long after this recording.

J-
"Furthermore, you should never hover just above the ground - too much gust from the engine."

#3 heli.pilot

heli.pilot

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 364 posts
  • Location:Washington

Posted 03 February 2009 - 12:48

Naturally the guy was scared, but that is NOT the way to handle an emergency...

It's not inadvertent IMC, but this is an emergency that IS handled well...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
- Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.

- To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.

#4 MN Heli Flyer

MN Heli Flyer

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 152 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 03 February 2009 - 12:55

I think one of the YouTube posters said it best "WOW!"

No record of the aircraft on NTSB. He must have made it.

Does anyone know if ATC is trained to give instructions when a pilot encounters spatial disorientation? When the pilot thought he was losing it the controller told him to let go of the stick (or yoke in this case a Cessna 172) push forward slightly and then pull back slightly. Does this temporarily remove the vertigo?

I have experience spatial disorientation before under the hood. Trusting and interpreting your instruments will get you through it. A flight instructor friend of mine would insist on using his hood when flying with him. He had a Francis hood. I hated the thing at first. It was very difficult to fly with and I would get spatial disorientation often. The more I used it the better I liked it because it made you a much better instrument pilot. I now own one and recommend it to any pilot that does instrument training.

Train, train, and train.
"Whether you think you can or you think you canít, youíre right."
Henry Ford

#5 rotorrodent

rotorrodent

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 218 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Layton Utah
  • Interests:Helicopters, Flying, Computer Programming, ...the list doesn't end!

Posted 03 February 2009 - 13:33

I think one of the YouTube posters said it best "WOW!"

.....The more I used it the better I liked it because it made you a much better instrument pilot. I now own one and recommend it to any pilot that does instrument training.

Train, train, and train.


I have always said to my instrument students.... an instrument rating is not so much a license to fly in the clouds as it is to fly "out" of the clouds.

Training for the Instrument Rating is the most important training a pilot could have, IMHO.

Cheers....Rotorrodent
*** Knowledge is what you get by reading the small print..
Experience is what you get for not reading it! ***

#6 heli.pilot

heli.pilot

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 364 posts
  • Location:Washington

Posted 03 February 2009 - 14:23

I have always said to my instrument students.... an instrument rating is not so much a license to fly in the clouds as it is to fly "out" of the clouds.

Training for the Instrument Rating is the most important training a pilot could have, IMHO.

Cheers....Rotorrodent


I agree. I am so glad that I got my instrument rating. For any private pilots out there trying to decide whether or not to do your instrument rating - DO IT! It's basically career suicide to not have an instrument rating these days. Yes, there are some very experienced helicopter pilots out there who don't have instrument ratings, however you won't be competing against those guys for a job. The vast majority of people you will be competing against for a job WILL have their instrument rating. Don't be the guy that doesn't have it! I truly believe that being instrument rated makes you a better VFR pilot anyway.
- Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.

- To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.

#7 palmfish

palmfish

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:KBFI
  • Interests:Helicopters, German sports cars, Audiophilia
  • Company working for:USDOJ

Posted 03 February 2009 - 14:40

Inadvertent IMC procedures.... PANIC!!!!

Some people should not be flying. I don't think he kept his licence for very long after this recording.

J-


I think you're being way too hard on the guy. Even instrument rated pilots die as a result of inadvertent IMC. It sounds like he came through OK, thanks to the calm voice of ATC.

#8 IFLY

IFLY

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 315 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arizona
  • Company working for:Arizona Aero-Tech

Posted 03 February 2009 - 16:07

Does anyone know if ATC is trained to give instructions when a pilot encounters spatial disorientation? When the pilot thought he was losing it the controller told him to let go of the stick (or yoke in this case a Cessna 172) push forward slightly and then pull back slightly. Does this temporarily remove the vertigo?

Didn't help with vertigo other than keeping him from making it worse.

Airplanes fly pretty good if you can keep the pilot from messing with them. A 172 will if he trimmed it before he got vertigo. Letting go of the yoke kept him from overcontrolling, pushing forward ensured he had airspeed then pulling back brought him out of the dive. At that point if he let go again it would fly itself, might wander a bit but it wouldn't flip itself upside down.

I was flying a 172 last Saturday shooting approaches and practicing "Autos"

Jerry
Jerry
Posted Image

#9 AngelFire_91

AngelFire_91

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Company working for:Somewhere in Southeast Alaska

Posted 03 February 2009 - 16:15

I think one of the YouTube posters said it best "WOW!"

No record of the aircraft on NTSB. He must have made it.

The pilot does make it ok, he comments in the end that he saw towers passing by his aircraft within feet, very scary indeed. This recording was originally put out by the FAA, The original recording has an introduction from the FAA on it, all communications/coordination between ATC and FSS, even after his transfer to ATC, and also the phone call from the pilot after he is down to flight service thanking them, and them asking questions of the pilot. I have the original, and make all my students listen to it. I'll see if I can get it posted.

#10 Eggbeater

Eggbeater

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 148 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Company working for:One of the major Gulf operators

Posted 03 February 2009 - 16:15

That YouTube video is actually a portion of a larger recording that was released to demonstrate the value of ARTCC in a situation like this. Basically, the pilot owes his life to the controller that guided him through recovery of the aircraft and also to the controllers that assisted him in finding VFR conditions. I think this video is also helpful in dispelling the myth of any "trouble" you can get into for declaring an emergency. Everyone in the video was extremely helpful and any explaining required would be worth the trouble in exchange for your life.

In the latter portion of the video, you can hear the same pilot talking about the experience, so happily it ended pretty well. Here's the link for the full audio, it should play on your computer as an audio file. It is worth taking the time to listen to, if not only to hear how much coordination goes on behind the scenes at ARTCC. Gives me the warm and fuzzies to know someone is looking out for us up there.

Flight Assist

#11 Darren Hughes

Darren Hughes

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 399 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Redding, CA

Posted 03 February 2009 - 16:24

I think you're being way too hard on the guy. Even instrument rated pilots die as a result of inadvertent IMC. It sounds like he came through OK, thanks to the calm voice of ATC.


I gotta agree with you here Palmfish. None of know exactly how we're gonna react in situations as scary as this until we find ourselves in them for the first time. For all we know we might end up squealing like a little 6 year old girl!! If it does happen to us hopefully our training will kick in and we can rely on our instruments at least enough to keep us alive through the situation.

Hopefully this audio will drive home to many of us just how horrifying spatial disorientation in IMC really is. And hopefully more of us will pay more attention to weather in the future on VFR flights.

I had a guy that came in for his Commercial Long X-country the other day. He had zero weather information and hadn't even so much as drawn a line on his sectional to show his route of flight. He told me there was GPS in the aircraft so he didn't need to plan the flight. After I checked the weather at his destination and found it was 2 miles with snow, he soon found himself not on his long X-country, but in a classroom with me for an even longer ground on Weather, X-country flight planning, ADM, and Aeromedical!! The next time I see him try to pull a stunt like that, there'll be a recommendation to the boss to cut him loose from the school altogether!

#12 Wally

Wally

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,093 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:38GA
  • Interests:Reading's high on the list.
  • Company working for:Air Methods

Posted 03 February 2009 - 18:14

I gotta agree with you here Palmfish. None of know exactly how we're gonna react in situations as scary as this until we find ourselves in them for the first time. For all we know we might end up squealing like a little 6 year old girl!! If it does happen to us hopefully our training will kick in and we can rely on our instruments at least enough to keep us alive through the situation.

Hopefully this audio will drive home to many of us just how horrifying spatial disorientation in IMC really is. And hopefully more of us will pay more attention to weather in the future on VFR flights.

I had a guy that came in for his Commercial Long X-country the other day. He had zero weather information and hadn't even so much as drawn a line on his sectional to show his route of flight. He told me there was GPS in the aircraft so he didn't need to plan the flight. After I checked the weather at his destination and found it was 2 miles with snow, he soon found himself not on his long X-country, but in a classroom with me for an even longer ground on Weather, X-country flight planning, ADM, and Aeromedical!! The next time I see him try to pull a stunt like that, there'll be a recommendation to the boss to cut him loose from the school altogether!


Aviation is very efficient as a method of culling the careless and stupid from the population. IIMC is the process distilled to the essentials.
Just a pilot...

#13 West Coaster

West Coaster

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North

Posted 03 February 2009 - 23:47

Aviation is very efficient as a method of culling the careless and stupid from the population. IIMC is the process distilled to the essentials.


I hope irony never pays you a visit with respect to that comment.

#14 Justin DBC

Justin DBC

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 255 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Beach, CA
  • Interests:Flying, Hiking, Weight Lifting, Marksmanship, Martial Arts, Music
  • Company working for:CA Army National Guard

Posted 04 February 2009 - 01:19

I think you're being way too hard on the guy. Even instrument rated pilots die as a result of inadvertent IMC. It sounds like he came through OK, thanks to the calm voice of ATC.


My point is that inadvertent IMC procedures are taught for a reason. There is a big difference between being scared and freezing up. I fully understand from what was said above about being able to see towers below him that he was in a pucker-factor 10 situation. That being said, he should not have been in a state of mind where he had to rely on the calm voice of ATC to fly his aircraft for him. I've been in plenty of near-death experiences before with people who reacted propperly and who reacted, well... like the guy on that recording. The major difference is propper training, propper planning, and going over your emergency procedures on a VERY regular basis so you are familiar with them. People who cannot handle a bit of pressure and react in a (relitively) calm manner in an emergency situation should not be flying by themselves. Period.

J-
"Furthermore, you should never hover just above the ground - too much gust from the engine."

#15 MN Heli Flyer

MN Heli Flyer

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 152 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 04 February 2009 - 10:21

The major difference is propper training, propper planning, and going over your emergency procedures on a VERY regular basis so you are familiar with them. People who cannot handle a bit of pressure and react in a (relitively) calm manner in an emergency situation should not be flying by themselves. Period.

J-


This guy was a VFR pilot so he only had limited instrument training. In the long version it states he was trying to do a 180 which is what is taught when you fly into IMC. He started to climb and the stall warning was going off. He had the presence of mind to know he screwed up and was in trouble so he called for help.

I do not believe you can fly into day time IMC inadvertently without taking a large risk in the first place. You can see clouds and weather before you get to it. But at night it is a totally different scenario. I donít know if it was day or night here.

Most people are not tested in life to know how they will react when they are put in life threatening situations, because they just never have had those experiences. This guy was losing it but he never completely lost it. He was able to think and correct his flying enough to regain control and calm down. This saved his life. The guy on the radio may have helped him through it but the important thing here is that he made it through to live another day.

The message here with this post I believe is to not put yourself in that kind of situation. And this is where I agree with everyone. Train, train, and train.
"Whether you think you can or you think you canít, youíre right."
Henry Ford

#16 West Coaster

West Coaster

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North

Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:44

So many people think going IIMC can't happen to them. It's not like it's as simple a matter as flying into the only cloud in the sky on a clear blue day. Pilots press the weather untill they've got no where to go and presto, you're in cloud. True there is no excuse for it, but everyone is capable of making this mistake in crap weather. It's easier than you may think.

I've done it, during daylight in a 2 crew IFR equipped S76 at 200' AGL and it almost killed me. Most horrifying 15 seconds of my entire life (though we didn't react like the guy in the audio clip). We were fools for being there and were fortunate to pop out the other side fine. Never again, lesson learned. I'm not proud of it, but I tell it so others hopefully won't ever know the feeling of IIMC.

Also know another pilot who somehow survived IIMC in a AS350, with no IFR training under her belt. To hear her tell it, I have no clue how she is still alive. At one point she figures she was near inverted before popping out of the cloud right-side up, as if by magic. She actually had chronic nightmares about it for months afterwards and almost stopped her flying career as a result.

#17 DynamicallyUnstable

DynamicallyUnstable

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 170 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Company working for:CALSTAR

Posted 04 February 2009 - 16:03

True there is no excuse for it, but everyone is capable of making this mistake in crap weather. It's easier than you may think.

I've done it, during daylight in a 2 crew IFR equipped S76 at 200' AGL and it almost killed me. Most horrifying 15 seconds of my entire life (though we didn't react like the guy in the audio clip). We were fools for being there and were fortunate to pop out the other side fine. Never again, lesson learned. I'm not proud of it, but I tell it so others hopefully won't ever know the feeling of IIMC.


I couldn't agree more WC. I went IIMC in Alaska once and if I were to describe how it played out in my head it would be something like:
- First 2 seconds "oh sh*t, I'm in the stuff"
- For the next 3 seconds it hit me and I felt panic come over me and actualy said to myself out loud (thank God I was solo) "oh my God."
- After that mental IMPACT, I told myself "DON'T PANIC, RELY ON YOUR TRAINING!"
I was already on instruments at that time but not processing well as I was panicked.
- I calmed myself, slowed to 80 kts, stabilized S&L, pulled terrain map up on Capstone (so I didn't CFIT) and just as it came up I came out of it. Had I not come out of it, my next move was a 180* turn to get back out of it. I'm thankful I didn't have to do it.

Scared the hell out of me so I can relate to how the guy felt. Longest 15 seconds of my life!!! Along with WC, I learned my lesson and I am NOT proud of it. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, people, do NOT go IIMC. If there is a chance of it, don't take it.

I always did really well flying instruments and even through IIMC training and IIMC testing on checkrides but there is NOTHING like actually being in it.

DON'T DO IT
Fly Safe,

Sebastian

#18 JDHelicopterPilot

JDHelicopterPilot

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 991 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Concord,CA
  • Company working for:REACH Air Medical EMS (IFR A109, VFR B407). FAA Safety Team Representitive (OAK FSDO)

Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:18

This guy was a VFR pilot so he only had limited instrument training. In the long version it states he was trying to do a 180 which is what is taught when you fly into IMC. He started to climb and the stall warning was going off. He had the presence of mind to know he screwed up and was in trouble so he called for help.

I do not believe you can fly into day time IMC inadvertently without taking a large risk in the first place. You can see clouds and weather before you get to it. But at night it is a totally different scenario. I donít know if it was day or night here.

Most people are not tested in life to know how they will react when they are put in life threatening situations, because they just never have had those experiences. This guy was losing it but he never completely lost it. He was able to think and correct his flying enough to regain control and calm down. This saved his life. The guy on the radio may have helped him through it but the important thing here is that he made it through to live another day.

The message here with this post I believe is to not put yourself in that kind of situation. And this is where I agree with everyone. Train, train, and train.



I agree with WC and DU that it's quite possible that it can happen during the day as well as night. I have several stories close to home.

First one:(short version) During my IFR training with my CFI we intended to fly over the hills from KOAK to KCCR but were unable due to clouds. I elected to return to KOAK. My CFI took the controls from me without doing positive exchange of controls, put us into the soup, climbed like mad and popped out VFR over the top and continued to KCCR. I had no choice as I felt it was best not to fight over the controls with my CFI. Once out of the soup, couldn't really return to KOAK so I decided to continue with my CFI and finish the lesson. We finished and by then the clouds had burned away(typical coastal pattern) and went back to KOAK. We spoke about what happened, told him how I felt and all seemed well.

Second one: Several years later that same CFI killed himself and a PVT rated pilot in an R-44 by flying VFR in IMC at night. Notice I didn't say IIMC. It was in no way inadvertant. With all the weather information presented to and avalible, it was pretty clear flying was out of the question.

As for me, I have never gone IIMC while at the controls and intend to keep it that way. It's true though you never truly know how someone will react to a real situation until it happens. This is why training is so important. We must train and train until it's second nature. I feel that IIMC training is not done enough by CFIs and that more needs to be done to address this. Sure we have all done unusual attitude recovery in our instrument training but that doesn't mimic real life IIMC as it should. Such training should put more on avoidance, decision making process and recovery before it turns into an unusula attitude.
JD


FAASTeam Representitive (OAK FSDO)
www.facebook.com/jdhelicopterpilot

#19 Witch

Witch

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 872 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ewwwgene, OR
  • Interests:Deutschland, Schweitz. Hubschraubepiloten. YouTube.
  • Company working for:"Worlds Finest Motorcoaches" no more. They went under earlier this year. Now I'm an unemployed student. Narf

Posted 08 February 2009 - 19:59

I'm wondering; if one flies into it, and has a lot of altitude, would an auto bring one out of it to the point they can now see the ground and do the 180?

just a thought.
Chuck Norris was born in a log cabin that he built with his own hands.

#20 DynamicallyUnstable

DynamicallyUnstable

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 170 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Company working for:CALSTAR

Posted 08 February 2009 - 20:23

I'm wondering; if one flies into it, and has a lot of altitude, would an auto bring one out of it to the point they can now see the ground and do the 180?

just a thought.


You don't so much wanna auto in IMC. Remember when you're in an auto, where are your eyes? OUTSIDE I hope. That'd be a pretty big risk over 180* turn back into VMC.
Fly Safe,

Sebastian




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users



GuidanceVRFTForum200702HeliVRFT200UNDVRFTForum200HeliAviationFT200TampaBayVRFT2012_200JerryTrimbleRPMN Mag BannerOdysseyFT200