mechanic Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) Here we go again... I amazes me that RHC keeps having blade debond issues. Maybe Frank needs to get someone else to manufacture his blades? Makes me not want to fly the darn thing. This alert includes 22, 44, and 44II. I just opened up my letter and then checked RHC's website..... Blade Safety alert Edited May 2, 2007 by mechanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gft Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Thanks for the tip off-Hadn't received my letter yet- gft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Thanks for the tip off-Hadn't received my letter yet- gft Gee, I was in class with Frank today, guess it slipped his mind because he didnt mention it ! Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Goldy, Did you ask about the Safety Alert at RHC course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUSE Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Goldy, Did you ask about the Safety Alert at RHC course? It was told to us on Wed. during the maintenance course. There has been 3 reports out of the thousands of blades out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Thanks for the update FUSE! It makes me feel better that it is a limited issue so far... Hope it stays that way. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Thanks for the update FUSE! It makes me feel better that it is a limited issue so far... Hope it stays that way. Mechanic, I did ask on a break, so the instructor went and got copies of the SN and sent them around. Check the last 6 inches or so of the blade for signs of delam...of course, you will never know if the copters involved were subjected to rotor overspeeds, etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 What got me to thinking about someone else offering blades for the Robinson heli's is that Carson Helicopters has DuCommun AeroStructures, Inc manufacture carbon fiber STC blades for the S-61, with great results. There are enough R22/44's around to warrant an STC blade. Links DuCommun AeroStructures, Inc Carson Helicopters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatnlazy Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Junk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Here we go again... I amazes me that RHC keeps having blade debond issues. Dammned if you do, dammned if you don't! Hobson's Choice! Catch 22! So what are RHC meant to do? Everytime they issue a safety alert, they get slammed. If they don't, they'd get slammed. We are talking about (apparantly) 3 blades out of many that are flying that showed these signs. It is only a 'Safety Alert'. It only tells you to do something that a good mechanic should be doing anyway. I read this safety alert as nothing more than.....'Some idiot mechanic didn't do a thorough check on his blades, let them get corroded and some debonding started. We found out, so issue this alert to any more idiot mechanics. Check everything. Duh!!!!' I don't think the blades are any less reliable. The number of past Safety Alerts that RHC has bought out is not that much different to most other manufaturers. Joker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) Boy,You just seem to keep saying Junk everytime someone speaks about a Robbie. Schools can't stay open using a UH1-F for training and most people can't buy one for personnel use either. Bell had rotor seperations with the UH-1's and AH-1's in the early days before twin bladed rotors were totally understood. So I guess they are junk too since the rotor can seperate on one of those, too. Other than debonding, the other reasons for carbon fiber blades would be as with the S-61, higher cruise speed, higher gross, and longer service life. Joker, Fuse beat you to the 3 blades issue. Reread my response...My response was not edited either. Besides, the letter does not state how many blades have failed.. Edited January 16, 2007 by mechanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Boy,You just seem to keep saying Junk everytime someone speaks about a Robbie. Schools can't stay open using a UH1-F for training and most people can't buy one for personnel use either. Bell had rotor seperations with the UH-1's and AH-1's in the early days before twin bladed rotors were totally understood. So I guess they are junk too since the rotor can seperate on one of those, too. Other than debonding, the other reasons for carbon fiber blades would be as with the S-61, higher cruise speed, higher gross, and longer service life. Joker, Fuse beat you to the 3 blades issue. Reread my response...My response was not edited either. Besides, the letter does not state how many blades have failed.. The letter doesnt state it, but they stated in class they had 3 issues. My other point still stands...how does anyone know whether or not the blades involved were on ships that were abused? Does anyone call Robinson and say, hey my blades are delaminating...and oh boy the way, we've had 10 rotor overspeeds in the last month? Interesting that the areas near the tip are experiencing this, and of course, those same areas are the fastest turning areas of the blade. After spending a week at the factory, I'm more impressed with the R22 but really impressed with the 44. If I owned either, I wouldnt be too concerned with this latest SN.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatnlazy Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 The reason my response to the robbie post is alway's JUNK, is because that is my opinion and I'm sorry if my opinion bothers you. Get over it. And as far as comparing the robbie, be it a 22 or a 44, to any Bell helicopter let alone a UH/1, you need to get cleaned up man get off the meth get some help, get a job. Good luck in rehab. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Guy, You are on meth. You can't read what my post said. Read it again. You say you work for Armstrong Helicopters and they fly UH-1's, that's why I made a comparison. I can care less if you like a Robbie or not and I am sure everyone else doesn't care either.Everyone can't afford $600.00 per hour to train in a 206BIII. If I had the money, I prob would fly the 206, but I don't and it wouldn't be fair to my family to spend that extreme of an amount just to upgrade the training aircraft. Your welcome fatnlazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatnlazy Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 A robbie is not the only training helicopter out there and it is not the cheapest to purchase either, and if you didn't care less about my opinion then you wouldn't be whining. I'm just trying to save a life out there, maby even yours. If you have a wife and children I'm sure that they would like to see you make it through your flight training and come home every night. Robbies are a very dangerous (so called) helicopter because they are "JUNK" and that is a fact that can be verified by reading the NTSB reports on robbies and then reading the only SFAR out there for training helicopters ( SFAR 73 ). Good day sir. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hey fatnlazy, Glad to see you can take the time to elaborate more about your opinion, other than "Junk". If you genuinely are concerned about my and others safety, then great. I appreciate it. I am not totally new to reading and learning about heli's. I have been doing so full time since 97' and I am full aware of the NTSB R22 report and have viewed the Factory SFAR 73 video and completed the awareness training. The Robinson has a Rigid In Plane rotor head which is different from any other helicopter. If Bell or any other manufacture used a Rigid In Plane design? I bet they would have a SFAR, too. Is the rigid in plane the best rotor for a training aircraft? My opinion is no. The low inertia properties have something to do with it all as well. My only "whining" was that of durability of the blades and Robinsons chance to make things right after the -2 blade problem. As far as I know, the rest of the helicopter holds up pretty well even in training environments. I have A&P friends on the FX'd wing side, we have talked about a few airplanes that looses wings in flight everso often, stuff happens. The Robinson is built with lots of tried general aviation technique's. You look at a Cessna, then look at a Robinson airframe, they are very standard construction tech's used. The Cessna is very popular and holds up very well over time. Yes, I will admit that the R22 has less safety margin than a 269, most everyone knows that. On to the NTSB reports, I have really tried to ignore this when I have read it over the years. But, let me point this out and the rest of you can check and correct me if I am wrong. I also know everyone likes to point to hours of operation. If you do a NTSB search on just the R22 from 79' to 07', you will get about 100 fatals. If you search the 269, all variants, under the Hughes and Schweizer names, you get about 84 fatals. And not counting military use crashes. That's only 13 fatals difference total from 79'-07'. There are way more R22 airframes than 269 airframes flying, esp on the training side. No need to call me Sir, by your birth date on your bio, you are about 20 days older than me, lol…. Safe flights, mechanic P.S. I would love to see Bell redesign the 47H1 into a modern training/private use bird. With a up to date rotorhead more like the 206b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatnlazy Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I took your advice and did some research, however my #'s and yours do not match. The 1st accident/incident recorded that I can find for the r-22 is 4/1977, and there have been 644 others up to this time w/173 of them being fatal. The 1st for the r-44 was 1/1998 w/62 there after and 50 total fatalities. The 1st for the TH-55/H269 ( not including military ) was 1/1965 showing 432 there after and 35 fatalities. And the 1st for the new 300 model shows a date in 1983, and 36 more to follow w/only 1 fatal. Now it appears to me that the TH-55/H269/S300 models have been in service about 40-45 yrs, give or take w/36 fatal accidents VS the robbie being in service 25-30 yrs and 223 fatals. Now I'll admit I'm not real bright, so maby you could get your calculator out, do the math and convince me that the robbie is the safer training helicopter. P.S. I got all of my info by reading month to month through thr NTSB reports, takes a little longer but more accurate. Sorry about my spelling, sorry about the attitude and sorry about being an ass, but those things are dangerous and they do kill people, anyway good luck be safe. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Guy,I used the NTSB Query and it highlights fatals in red. I did say all variants of the 269- A's, B, C, C-1, and D, since it is all the same airframe. Adding all the Hughes and Schweizer together I got 98 highlighted fatals on the NTSB Query from 12/22/75 thru 09/09/06. Also all the R22 variants are grouped. Std, HP, Alpha, Beta/Mariner, and BII/MII.Adding up all from 12/22/75 thru 09/24/06 I got 100 fatals. Thats a difference of 2 fatals in the same time frame. I checked a few of the monthly records against the Query and they matched the monthly reports. The Query should match the monthly reports. I realize its not broken down by flight training, but it gives a very basic over view of safety in a crash. If someone knows why the Query is incorrect please let me know. NTSB QuerySearched withHelicopters, all, Robinson R22, Schweizer 269, Hughes 269. Later,mechanic P.S. No harm done.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I updated my previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 FAA Special AWB , Just released 02/09/07. They have 4 R22 blades and 6 R44 blades debonded at the outer end of the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500E Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 The NTSB report regarding debonding requires a close read.In the recommendation it talks about portions of blades with paint cracked as well as portions with paint abraded having corrosion. How\why are they debonding ?? over speed ? poor bonding from new ? or corrosion from new? leading to premature failure? Perhaps some one could enlighten us, also the hours on the failed blades (close to end of life?)There must be a good mech that has found a blade that failed the tap test and an owner who wants to know why This is not a kick Robinson post but a serious inquiry as to what is happening, as people keep telling me there are 1000s of Robbys out there and this is not the first blade problem surely it should be sorted by know ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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