Ground Instruction

[sj7162]

I have been looking at schools in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. One of the instructors told me that I didn't need to do ground instruction. All I needed to do was memorize the test questions. He said this is a good way for me to save money and just concentrate on flying. Is this a good approach? It just came up at the last school I checked out. Thanks for any help on this.

[Darren Hughes]

That's fine if you want to just pass the test. But it does nothing for someone who needs to know how a helicopter works, like, lets see, uumm, a helicopter pilot for instance!!! It's true that you can and need to do a lot of the ground studying yourself, But unless you're an absolute genius you do need ground instruction from an instructor to be able to piece all the information together so that you have a full working knowledge of the helicopter and everything else involved in flying it such as weather etc..

 

Also, your instructor needs to know that you have all the necessary knowledge needed to pass the check ride and to be a safe pilot. Without doing at least a minimal amount of ground lessons with you, they just can't know that. Any instructor who doesn't want to do ground with you should be getting your business.

 

All that being said, Maybe what he meant was that you should do a lot of the studying at home yourself and that he would do enough ground time with you to ensure you know the material well enough to be a safe pilot. If this is so, this isn't a bad way to study, especially if you want to save money in areas of your training. If that's not what he meant, then he is not really interested in teaching you to become a pilot, he just wants you to pay for him to gain hours so he can move on out of the flight instruction world.

 

When I was doing my CFI course, the owner of the school done 3 weeks of ground school with all the CFI students in which he gave us some really good tips. One of those I'll never forget. He said that when we as CFI's sign someone off for a private pilot or any other check ride, we should know and have no doubts that that person is already a pilot and to look at the check ride as the FAA confirming our decision that this person is indeed a Private Pilot.

 

If a CFI isn't doing enough ground with you, how can they know this.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Darren Hughes

[ADRidge]

I have been looking at schools in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. One of the instructors told me that I didn't need to do ground instruction. All I needed to do was memorize the test questions. He said this is a good way for me to save money and just concentrate on flying. Is this a good approach? It just came up at the last school I checked out. Thanks for any help on this.

 

That's a horrible idea. Ground isn't just about the written exams. Flying is the easy part, to be honest. It may not seem like that after 5 hours, but it is. Do you already know how to do a Nav Log, Weight and Balance? How familiar are you with US Airspace? With the FAR/AIM? Rotary wing aerodynamics? Ground school teaches you the why's behind what you do in the air, as well as plenty of the how's.

 

There is something to be said for "getting through" the writtens, but I think the question bank for PPL is like 600 questions, of which you will answer a random 60 or so. If you want to devote all that time to memorizing answers that won't get you through your oral exam, be my guest. I'd much rather use that time to learn the subject matter. I'd say find another school. There are plenty around here.

[Goldy]

One of the instructors told me that I didn't need to do ground instruction.

 

Great idea. You can do all your own ground school and save money.

 

Now the part about just memorizing and not learning...thats the bad idea part.

 

Goldy

[FUSE]

I agree, sort of. I didn't do much official "Ground School". I studied my butt off, and during my pre-flights, flights, and post flights I would take advantage of any silent time and talk w/ the instructor. I did maybe 1 hours of real ground school for my private and I'd say maybe 5-7 hours for my commercial. But the less ground school you do, the more disciplined you have to be with learning it it on your own.

 

Do not just learn the answers to the questions, that will not benefit you at all in your pilot career.

[AngelFire_91]

I agree, sort of. I didn't do much official "Ground School". I studied my butt off, and during my pre-flights, flights, and post flights I would take advantage of any silent time and talk w/ the instructor. I did maybe 1 hours of real ground school for my private and I'd say maybe 5-7 hours for my commercial. But the less ground school you do, the more disciplined you have to be with learning it it on your own.

 

Do not just learn the answers to the questions, that will not benefit you at all in your pilot career.

I agree with FUSE, for my fixed wing private I didn't do much if any ground school, maybe 2 or 3 hours of offical ground school. Everything else was pre-flight, during flight, post-flight. Commercial was the same way a little more ground though for some regulations and such. My Helicopter commercial add-on I did part 141 so ground was required, and I personally found it to be kind of boring, it really was a waste of time FOR ME. Now it might not be that way for everyone, and everyone is different. So if you think you would benifet from formal ground training then by all means.

[sj7162]

Thanks for your great feedback. I decided not to go the school that suggested memorize test questions and no ground instruction. I went to the school on my short list today and posed the question to them. They showed me their text books and I had no clue about some of the things in there. They did not think that memorizing test questions was a good idea, which seems to be what everyone here thinks to. They also showed me some tests on their PC's which have test questions and then give you the right explanation when you get the question wrong. Their suggestion was to do as much studying as I can on my own and then have them help me with the things I was struggling to understand. I think this approach will work for me and that I am going to sign up with them. I know that free advertising is not encouraged, so if anyone has any info/experience with All American Helicopters in Denton, please email me.

[PhotoFlyer]

Advertising isn't permitted, but school review and opinions are. You don't have to email or PM your responses if you want them to be available to all. Just keep it honest. Reviews can be good or bad, just no bashing.

[aviatr]

Advertising isn't permitted, but school review and opinions are. You don't have to email or PM your responses if you want them to be available to all. Just keep it honest. Reviews can be good or bad, just no bashing.

 

I sent you an email sj7162 and will answer any of your questions. I am a student at All American. They are very professional and really know their stuff - mostly ex military instructors. I have been treated very well there. I recommend them to anyone at any level.

[jehh]

I sent you an email sj7162 and will answer any of your questions. I am a student at All American. They are very professional and really know their stuff - mostly ex military instructors. I have been treated very well there. I recommend them to anyone at any level.

 

First, let me say that I've never heard anything bad about Gene, as far as I know, he has good aircraft and good CFIs, and in this business no complaints are generally a very good sign.

 

That being said, I have a question... When a school advertises that they have ex-military and high flight time CFIs, and you're trying to become a professional pilot, what are you going to do when you become a CFI?

[aviatr]

First, let me say that I've never heard anything bad about Gene, as far as I know, he has good aircraft and good CFIs, and in this business no complaints are generally a very good sign.

 

That being said, I have a question... When a school advertises that they have ex-military and high flight time CFIs, and you're trying to become a professional pilot, what are you going to do when you become a CFI?

 

 

Good question. I am going to send my resume out to a lot of flight schools just like everyone else and beg.

 

Here is how I look at it. I don't believe that flight schools can guarantee all their students a job when they graduate, so I am going to be a low hour CFI/CFII when I graduate regardless of which school I go to, just like most everyone else. So why not get some additional benefits by being trained by high flight time CFIs?

[jehh]

Good question. I am going to send my resume out to a lot of flight schools just like everyone else and beg.

 

That works... Of course, it won't be "a lot" of flight schools, since so few these days only fly the Schweizer. That is one of the reasons why we added the Robinson aircraft to our fleet, because for a new CFI, being limited to just the Schweizer limits your job options.

 

Here is how I look at it. I don't believe that flight schools can guarantee all their students a job when they graduate, so I am going to be a low hour CFI/CFII when I graduate regardless of which school I go to, just like most everyone else. So why not get some additional benefits by being trained by high flight time CFIs?

 

You are correct, no flight school can (or should) guarantee you a job. We do not hire everyone we produce, and we tell everyone that up front. But the truth is, there isn't anything random about who we hire among our graduates. We hire those people who have shown during their training to be above average in several areas, professionalism, teaching quality, dedication, etc.

 

As far as high flight time CFIs go, that helps, but it can also hurt. Just having lots of flight time does not make you a good CFI, and not having tons of time doesn't make you a bad one. Being a quality teacher is more important. When you send out your resumes, most people looking at yours won't have any idea if you know your stuff or not.

 

None of this is to say you won't be anything but wildly successful, I hope you will. Just keep in mind that you're limiting your options by going to a single aircraft school staffed by experienced CFIs, your job options will be quite limited. That's all...

 

Fly Safe!

[aviatr]

It depends on how you look at it. Personally, I think I am better off having my low 200 (or thereabouts) hours in one aircraft and being able to fly that aircraft really well than having low time in multiple aircraft. I think my chances are better at getting a job this way. I also prefer to learn to fly in an aircraft that doesn't require a special far (SFAR-73) and have to take a Safety class.

 

I think that's great that you hire your graduates.

 

I don't understand why you think that there is any comparison to 200 hours and 10,000 hours when these people do this as profession, not as a transition to build hours. I think if you ask any of the high time professional pilots on this board, they will agree that there is no substitution for experience. I know some top quality CFI's from other schools who come by to get mentoring and help with certain questions/issues they encounter.

 

Thank you for your good wishes. I am very satisfied with my decision, the training I am receiving and also with my future job options. I think we are very lucky in the DFW area to be able to choose between good schools that offer different strokes for different folks. Good luck to you too and fly safe!

[jehh]

It depends on how you look at it. Personally, I think I am better off having my low 200 (or thereabouts) hours in one aircraft and being able to fly that aircraft really well than having low time in multiple aircraft.

 

For what it is worth, you are correct that being a master of one does make you a better pilot and CFI, it just limits your job options.

 

I also prefer to learn to fly in an aircraft that doesn't require a special far (SFAR-73) and have to take a Safety class.

 

I know how you feel. I had 350 hours in the Schweizer before I transitioned to the Robinson R-22 and got my 50 hours in it to teach. It wasn't until I had 150 hours in the R-22 until I really felt like I knew the aircraft, which is why I do not have my new CFIs with 50 hours out teaching autos.

 

Personally, I think the R-22 is a lousy trainer, but they are what the marketplace is using, so we have to use them too. It is also why we continue to use the Schweizer 300 for primary instruction, it is a much better trainer, abit at a higher price. The R-44 on the other hand, is a very nice helicopter that autos much nicer than either the 300 or R-22, you should try one at some point.

 

I think that's great that you hire your graduates.

 

Only the good ones.

 

I don't understand why you think that there is any comparison to 200 hours and 10,000 hours when these people do this as profession, not as a transition to build hours.

 

I've met high time pilots who know their stuff, and high time pilots who I wouldn't trust with a model helicopter. Time is only one measure, teaching ability is another, and it can't be measured by flight time.

 

Anyone can be a great teacher if they want to be, and this really isn't rocket science, believe it or not.

 

In any case, I'm glad you found a place you like, at the end of the day that really is the key, you need to be comfortable with whom you're doing business with. I wish you nothing but the best of luck in your journey...

 

Fly Safe!

[aviatr]

For what it is worth, you are correct that being a master of one does make you a better pilot and CFI, it just limits your job options.

 

I value your feedback, so it is definitely worth something. I have seen some of your other posts and think it is great that you take the time to share insightful and useful information. I would also say though that I'm not sure having low hours in multiple aircraft improves job options. Let's say I was an R22 flight school owner and - all things being equal - had to choose between 2 candidates. One had all of his 200 hours in the R22 and the other had his 200 hours split between the R22, R44 and Schweizer. I would hire the CFI with all 200 hours in the Robinson.

 

The R-44 on the other hand, is a very nice helicopter that autos much nicer than either the 300 or R-22, you should try one at some point.

 

I would love to try the R-44. One day when I have some extra money, I will show up with cash in hand to try it out!

 

 

I've met high time pilots who know their stuff, and high time pilots who I wouldn't trust with a model helicopter. Time is only one measure, teaching ability is another, and it can't be measured by flight time.

 

So, take a good instructor at 200 hours and he is going to be the same 10,000 hours later? Let's put this in the context of the post I was making. I was commenting on my All American Helicopters high time flight instructors. Start with my flight instructor being an excellent teacher, a lot of it learned as part of his experience. Let's be specific about his experience - he was in the army for 35 years and earned the rank of two star general. He commanded 500 pilots. He has flown all terrain imaginable, in helicopters I will probably only ever dream about flying, often in combat. He has around 10,000 hours of flight time doing all of this plus something like 4000 hours of flight instruction time. My point is that even excellent teachers at 200 hours do not have the benefit of this kind of experience and therefore cannot pass it on to their students.

[jehh]

I value your feedback, so it is definitely worth something. I have seen some of your other posts and think it is great that you take the time to share insightful and useful information.

 

Thanks, I try my best...

 

I would also say though that I'm not sure having low hours in multiple aircraft improves job options. Let's say I was an R22 flight school owner and - all things being equal - had to choose between 2 candidates. One had all of his 200 hours in the R22 and the other had his 200 hours split between the R22, R44 and Schweizer. I would hire the CFI with all 200 hours in the Robinson.

 

Actually, you're correct, the R-22 only school is more likely to want the R-22 only guy. The only thing is, there aren't that many R-22 only schools left, since everyone now has to get the instrument rating and the R-22 hasn't been built as an IFR ship for many years.

 

There are plenty of R-22/R-44 schools, and a number of schools that fly the R-22/300. The only issue is that Robinson only guys are not hard to find, I have those resumes coming out of the woodwork. Schweizer only CFIs are harder to find, mostly due to the lack of Schweizer only schools left. You can probably count on one hand the number of schools that only fly the Schweizer and have 3 or more of them in the fleet. We used to be one of them, until last summer.

 

So, take a good instructor at 200 hours and he is going to be the same 10,000 hours later?

 

No, of course not. However most good instructors are not still instructing at this level at 10,000 hours, the pay isn't high enough.

 

Gene is giving away his services. He loves what he does, and I respect him for that. You can't build an industry on that however, which is why he now owns his own place, because the concept of an all high-time flight school just doesn't work past a few dedicated guys.

 

Let's be specific about his experience - he was in the army for 35 years and earned the rank of two star general. He commanded 500 pilots. He has flown all terrain imaginable, in helicopters I will probably only ever dream about flying, often in combat. He has around 10,000 hours of flight time doing all of this plus something like 4000 hours of flight instruction time.

 

Do keep in mind that none of that says anything about the quality of his teaching, just the quantity. Now from what I hear, Gene is fine and you won't need to worry about the quality.

 

At the end of the day, the best part of all this is we get to fly helicopters, and that is just plain fun!