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WORKING WITH A PPL?


pinky
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Far 61.113

(b ) A private Pilot may, for for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) the aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or Hire.

 

It sounds like you answered your own question though it would be illegal for them to hire you as a pilot.

Edited by beckwith
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You can not get hired AS A PILOT. If that is the sole reason they hired you then it would be illegal. Now that's not to say that if you got hired as a secertary, and then they ask you to bring some papers to "Joe's house" and you decided to fly instead of drive. Then maybe. But it's thin Ice your walking on, and the FAA has a very good way of interupting regs to their favor. As a private, I personally wouldn't risk it, unless I knew for sure it wasn't against any regs.

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WHAT ABOUT "IF" I FIND A JOB AS A R22/R44 PILOT AND I ONLY HAVE A PRIVATE PILOT LICENSE BUT THEY DON'T CARE, THEY JUST NEED A PILOT TO FLY THE ROBINSON RIGHT NOW, CAN I DO IT? i know i can't legally get pay for fly as a private pilot.

 

THEY may not care but you should. If you take a job knowing that the primary reason they hired you is because you are a pilot and they expect piloting services from you, your AVIATION career will be short lived. Even if you're desperate for hours, and a job, don't do it. Somebody is always watching and you should fly like the FAA is in the seat next to you.

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Pot Stirrer !!!

 

The way I understand it is that one can have someone else pay for the rental and stuff, but the pilot can't get paid as a commercial pilot BUT if the piloting is an incedental-not main-part of his job, then he can.

 

Example: Pinky gets hired by Brain to work as a concerege for his casino. Every once in a while, Brain has a client that wants a flight to see the house of Yakko, Wakko, and Dot. Brain has Pinky fly the client to the house and does a few orbits. This makes Penn and Teller mad and they complain to the FAA. Meanwhile Pinky returns to the casino helipad, and returns to his other duties and clients. Brain paid for the cost, Pinky received no compensation sans his normal salary, and the client paid nothing-he's a high roller you know.

 

If Pinky can get a job, and flying the bird isn't a primary part of the job and NOT get paid for the flight, that might qualify.

 

As always, I'm putting in a disclaimer in here. I may be in error, mainly because I don't understand lawyereese. That is my interpretation, yours may vary.

 

Later

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And if you do fly for no compensation, you can't log it. The FAA has interpreted the regs to consider the building of flight time as compensation.

 

Let me ask you this. Suppose you worked really hard on your commercial certificate. Wouldn't you be really pissed to know that some private pilot took a job from you because they were willing to work for free?

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Witch, with a team like that, I'd say those guys would be more suited to taking over the world, instead of running a casino!!! :lol:

 

 

I tried to take over the world once, but I overslept.

 

Later

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Damm you Witch, I was drinking coffee when I read that... :D

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And if you do fly for no compensation, you can't log it. The FAA has interpreted the regs to consider the building of flight time as compensation.

 

I am not aware of any regulations to support your claim. A flight does not have to be legal in order to log it. For instance, if a non-instrument-rated pilot files and IFR flight plan and flies an IFR flight in IMC, that pilot can log actual instrument time for the flight, according Part 61. The question is, however, SHOULD you log that time? Your logbook is a legal document of your flight experience, and therefore admissible in court as evidence. By logging flights that were conducted illegally, you essentially incriminate yourself should you get caught. You might get a ramp inspection some time where the ASI requests to see you logbook. The ASI might be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that you were conducting illegal flights. LOOK OUT!

 

Here's another situation... Let's say the flight school just finished an oil change on a helicopter, and you show up and fly that helicopter. Unbeknownst to you, the A&P hasn't gotten around to documenting the oil change in the aircraft maintenance log yet. You just flew an unairworthy aircraft. That's illegal! Can you still log the flight?

 

Okay, so for those of you who will take this wrong, I am not advocating flying illegally. I am merely pointing out that there is a distinction between the legal status of a flight and what the pilot logs.

 

~Jeff

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And if you do fly for no compensation, you can't log it. The FAA has interpreted the regs to consider the building of flight time as compensation.

 

I've heard this too. I think it's not just that you're logging it, but if you're using it to apply towards a certificate, i.e. your 100 hrs PIC for the commercial. In that case you are saving yourself the money you would ordinarily have spent to get those hours, and it is a form of compensation. I think I heard this from an AOPA lawyer at one of their safety seminars.

 

HVG

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Your logbook is a legal document of your flight experience, and therefore admissible in court as evidence. By logging flights that were conducted illegally, you essentially incriminate yourself should you get caught.

 

Question. How would someone KNOW that one had conducted an illegal flight or logged it? If you get ramp checked, how would the inspector KNOW what was legal or illegal? How would an inspector KNOW in a logbook was padded or not? How would they know, and how would they prove it?

 

On that note, you don't have to have your logbook on you when you fly. Only certificate, ID, and medical.

 

 

Here's another situation... Let's say the flight school just finished an oil change on a helicopter, and you show up and fly that helicopter. Unbeknownst to you, the A&P hasn't gotten around to documenting the oil change in the aircraft maintenance log yet. You just flew an unairworthy aircraft. That's illegal! Can you still log the flight?

~Jeff

 

The way I understand that scenerio, is that you've checked all that AROW stuff. Are you required to check the maintenance logs? The ones that are NOT kept with the aircraft? The maintenance logs are kept in the hangar, so once again-how would an inspector know?

 

Let the slinging begin.

 

Later

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Question. How would someone KNOW that one had conducted an illegal flight or logged it? If you get ramp checked, how would the inspector KNOW what was legal or illegal? How would an inspector KNOW in a logbook was padded or not? How would they know, and how would they prove it?

 

The FAA would probably only investigate a logbook further if they were given reason to. Such as, them seeing something suspicious in the logbook itself, someone reported you to them, or if you were part of an ongoing investigation such as a crash or low flying complaints or something like that. When they do investigate you they'll probably go all out. They will probably compare scheduling & billing records for the aircraft to your records and see if they match up, they could then check the maintenance records & hobbs to see if there really was that many hours put on the aircraft or not by the spacing between 100 hour checks and stuff like that. I could be wrong, I'm just speculating here, but that's what I'd do.

 

The way I understand that scenario, is that you've checked all that AROW stuff. Are you required to check the maintenance logs? The ones that are NOT kept with the aircraft? The maintenance logs are kept in the hangar, so once again-how would an inspector know?

 

Yes, in order for you to ensure that the aircraft is airworthy, the maintenance records must be checked by you the Pilot In Command.

Edited by Darren Hughes
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The way I understand that scenerio, is that you've checked all that AROW stuff. Are you required to check the maintenance logs? The ones that are NOT kept with the aircraft? The maintenance logs are kept in the hangar, so once again-how would an inspector know?

 

Let the slinging begin.

 

Later

You are the PIC, you are responsible to make sure the aircraft is airworthy. If the maintenance logs are not right, then the aircraft is not airworthy.

 

If you've never been ramped checked, it's not as easy as just, "Hey how are you? You have your documents on you?" The last time I got ramp checked, the inspector asked to see all the information I used to determine that aircraft was airworthy. After walking through all the ARROW stuff, he said "Oh that's great, how about maintence?" I had to go get the logs and prove it was airworthy. Well guess what, it wasn't according to the logs on hand, apperently the people that flew it before me had a tire changed somewhere else and since it was somewhere else it wasn't documented in the logbooks. I had to call the place it was done at, and luckely they were able to fax over the documents and signature of the A&P. The inspector took that and said it was ok, but he told me that they can ask whatever they want. If your a commercial pilot, they can ask commercial pilot level questions, and if they don't feel your good, then you can expect a letter from the FAA.

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You are very limited to what you can do with your PVT. Cert. You answered your own question when you asked the question in the first place.

 

NO.

 

Now, rumor has it the FAA will consider a pilot that is not being paid but logging the flight time as compensation since that time can be used in future ratings and certificates. I have heard of that as well. I don't know if it's true as we would have to find case law to support it but I suspect that it is infact true.

 

Another poster talked about ramp checks, log books and MX books/records. While off topic, in short, you have to be able to determine the aircraft is airworthy. That includes maintenance records. How do you know the inspections are done? How about the ELT if installed? Transponder? These are all some of the things you need to know.

 

If the inspector wants you to prove the aircraft is airworthy then bring out the MX log books. If you get ramp checked away from base then that would be a different story.

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JD:

Heard a similar story:

A guy flew jumpers on a private license. Got paid $200/month to mow the grass... the club turned him in after a some disagreements. The FAA agreed that indeed he did not get paid for flying, but received flying hours that are valuable to get a license. Supposedly they stripped him of all his licenses... FOREVER!

 

(don't even know if they can do that or not, but I wouldn't wanna try it out!)

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JD:

Heard a similar story:

A guy flew jumpers on a private license. Got paid $200/month to mow the grass... the club turned him in after a some disagreements. The FAA agreed that indeed he did not get paid for flying, but received flying hours that are valuable to get a license. Supposedly they stripped him of all his licenses... FOREVER!

 

(don't even know if they can do that or not, but I wouldn't wanna try it out!)

 

 

What club? The one he was flying for?

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It doesn't really matter. The point is the pilot got some sort of compensation for is piloting efforts. That is where the problem is.

 

If you want to get paid then get the Commerical done! You will learn that the FAR's are broken down into sections in which each one is a little more strict than the prior one.

 

Example, yes, you can get paid as a Commerical pilot. However, what you can do is limited. Such as not being able to drop a passenger off any place except the departure point. The FAA wants to see more expierance and training before you are able to do so. that is where FAR part 135 comes in. Even that section is restricted some.

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A guy flew jumpers on a private license. Got paid $200/month to mow the grass... the club turned him in after a some disagreements.

 

I don't care about the name of the club. It just sounds like the club paying him to mow the lawn is also the one who turned him in. Am I misreading this? It just seems strange that they would do that.

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