Autos in an R22 to the ground

[Wannabe1]

With the guy I rent helicopters from out of the state for a couple of months, I decided to visit a different airport and rent from them for the duration. The owner and chief instructor took me up to check me out which went fine.

 

While up he had me do a few autos. I have never done an auto to the ground. He teaches to the ground and doesn't do power recoveries until his students have mastered getting it to the ground. Sooo, he tells me to do a straight in auto to a power recovery. I did okay, but I did recover a tad high; we would have walked away from it just fine. He takes the controls, climbs to maybe 700' and does his demo auto. He keeps the rotor speed up, but varies the air speed from 30 knots to 65 knots to demo hitting a spot. He runs the air speed up to 55-60 at maybe 100' and drops it nicely onto his spot on the runway with a short slide.

 

My turn to go to the ground for the first time in my short pilot career and it turns out to not be so hard to go to the ground. My first effort results in a small bounce and slide. My second was pretty good (about 8-10 knot winds), no bounce and a nice slide.

 

1: I'm glad to have done autos to the ground and I will go to him again and have him improve my autos. The way he talks, possibly from a lot lower and a lot slower.

2: I didn't even know I could vary my air speed in an auto. I was instructed to keep it around 65, go to 70 if high and needing to reach a point. He said we can go backward in an auto if that is what is needed to hit the spot. Back when, if I ever slowed to even 50, my instructor was reminding me to "check your air speed"

3: I believe I heard that Frank doesn't even want us practicing autos, much less to the ground.

[knimer]

Thats interesting! I can't believe your instructor had never had you manipulate auto's. I am a 180 hour pilot, and during my commercial training we would even start auto's at ZERO. Sounds like you will learn alot from this guy.

[West Coaster]

To never teach autos to the ground is criminal in my mind.

[Darren Hughes]

You'd be surprised at the amount of places that only teach autos to a runway and only have their students enter the autos at a specified point in relation to a spot and have them glide straight in at 65kts right down to their spot. It just bugs me so much when I see these "simulated engine failures" being practiced over and over again during a lesson.

Autos should be practiced to similar terrain to what we fly over on X-country flights.

 

The only good reason I can see for practicing to a runway is for what Wannabe1 spoke about in his post; Full Downs! And maybe first timers.

 

When/If we ever have to enter an autorotation for real, we won't get to delay our entry for another 3 seconds or so because we want to reach our spot. Well, we could, but it wouldn't end well. Especially in a R22!! Rant over!

 

Ooh, and what West Coaster said, X2.

[Witch]

With the reliability of the engines so high, would practicing autos a lot be a waste of time?

 

Does one practice losing traction or skidding in a car? Try skidding around in an empty parking lot on snow or ice with cops nearby, and explaining that to the judge.

 

Later

[Goldy]

With the reliability of the engines so high, would practicing autos a lot be a waste of time?

 

10 times more ships are balled up practicing auto's than ever get ruined during a real auto.

 

That being said, If I find myself sideways on an icy road I will be really glad that I have had hours of training in skid recovery.

 

Goldy

[West Coaster]

With the reliability of the engines so high, would practicing autos a lot be a waste of time?

 

The stats on reliability are great... but ultimately meaningless to you the pilot. Nothing out there to guarantee you won't be at the controls of the very next helicopter that has an engine fail. It's gonna happen to some poor sap. Maybe it's you, maybe it's me.

[Jeff]

With the reliability of the engines so high, would practicing autos a lot be a waste of time?

 

Does one practice losing traction or skidding in a car? Try skidding around in an empty parking lot on snow or ice with cops nearby, and explaining that to the judge.

 

Later

 

Your argument is better for making skid training in a car mandatory, rather than for eliminating auto practice in a helicopter. imho.

 

~Jeff

[Witch]

I think you have misunderstood. Many people drive on ice and snow, and many are never taught what to do when a skid happens. Sure there are "experts" that tell you what to do, but are people taught what to do? Most likely not. That said, many more people rarely ever drive on snow or ice, but when they do, have they the knowlege of what to do when in a skid? Most likely not. And lastly, there are people that'll never drive on snow or ice. Do they have the training to react to skids? Will they ever need to react to skids? Will they ever get into a skid? Most likely not.

 

I equate the last part about skids to autos. The engines are extremely reliable and more than likely not fail. Would it then be like training someone from Egypt how to drive on snow and ice? Or would that be a waste of time for both parties?

 

Don't get me wrong, train for an engine failure, but not to the point where you'll be planning the engine to fail.

 

And that's all I'm gonna say.

 

Later

 

By the way, I'm in favor of NOT having the Government mandate anything, including skid training in a car.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Witch

[FallsFromChopper]

This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted last week. Do you have some contact info for this guy and a location?

 

Thanks

 

NK

[West Coaster]

Don't get me wrong, train for an engine failure, but not to the point where you'll be expecting the engine to fail.

 

Why would more training make anyone expect a failure in real life? I don't expect one, but I'm always planning for one when out flying.

[Rogue]

This guy teaches full downs and instructing at Rucker is his day job

 

http://www.enterprisehelicopters.com/1-contact.html

 

nothing like having an instructor with if i remember correctly 4000 hours of instructing experience

Edited March 5, 2009 by Rogue

[jehh]

Witch and I agree for once.

 

There are WAY too many practice autos being done, this industry is wrecking a lot of helicopters practicing for something that is actually quite rare in real life.

 

As for zero airspeed autos, backwards autos, etc. Unless you practice those all the time, I think it is more dangerous to try it once or twice, then in a year or two, think you can do it.

[West Coaster]

[Justin DBC]

Don't get me wrong, train for an engine failure, but not to the point where you'll be planning the engine to fail.

 

Are you serious?

 

I really don't see any logical reason why anyone shouldn't extensively practice EPs. Autorotations aren't just for your engine failing. Take a look in your POH and count how many times it says "enter autorotation" under other emergency procedures other than engine failure. Reliability of engines has nothing to do with it because so many other situations will call for an autorotative decent. It's a matter of being a safe pilot by having the muscle memory to preform emergency procedures so you'll be able to do them in a calm and efficient manner when the real thing comes.

[Hovergirl]

It's also true that while engine failures may be rare, you have VERY little time in these situations to call to mind how to autorotate. Muscle memory will save you maybe 1 or 2 seconds over someone who just has the procedure down cold in his head, and in situations that are time-critical that might make all the difference. However I wouldn't go so far as to teach full downs to anything but a clear, flat surface.

[RkyMtnHI]

 

 

 

dp

[C of G]

Witch and I agree for once.

 

As for zero airspeed autos, backwards autos, etc. Unless you practice those all the time, I think it is more dangerous to try it once or twice, then in a year or two, think you can do it.

 

 

The same logic holds true for any autorotation.

 

I think the accident rate is evidence of lack of proficiency. Perhaps the rate is due more so to inexperienced instructors or bad technique rather than an over-emphasized maneuver. I can say with some confidence, that the extensive training I have received and subsequently given has paid dividends in my career thus far. Three successful autorotations for emergencies in flight. Not all for engine failures.

[Ganja Warrior]

In addition to teaching me zero speed autos, I was also taught to shove to use full left pedal and while flying it to my spot in order to lose a ton of altitude quickly before straightening back out and hitting my spot. I also practiced entering autos & throttle chops in mountainous terrain (which is where I trained at mostly due to my job). This was all for my PPL checkride. Heck my examiner even demo'ed a zero speed during my checkride and HIGLY recommended becoming proficient at them. The first few scared the crap out of me, but then they got to be a real kick in the pants!

[Justin DBC]

The first few scared the crap out of me, but then they got to be a real kick in the pants!

 

Is a kick in the pants a good thing or a bad thing? I generally think of it as a bad thing. Just thinking about the memories that phrase brings to mind is painful.