Yuki Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Technically and from piloting stand points, what went wrong here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsDSvcEDCgg ThanX Edited March 25, 2009 by Yuki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) They came in too fast and didn't have enough power available to stop the huge rate of descent/forward airspeed. Just too hot for the conditions. Probably trying to show off for the crowd, and misjudged their closure rate. Edited March 25, 2009 by Gomer Pylot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Speculation- vortex ring state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelFire_91 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I agree with both the above. From the second view it looks like the forward speed had finally been reduced but as it slows his descent rate starts to increase, it's coning quite a bit twords the end which leads me to believe it's a Vortex Ring condition, again mearly speculation on that. I don't really know what the person writting the description is talking about when they say low rotor I really like the guys comment in the first view, "Oh that's normal." right as the blade breaks. hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuki Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Can a pilot recognize a vortex ring condition so close to the ground (after a quick stop) and is there a way to get out of this condition after realizing it has been initiated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beckwith Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) I'm not sure it's impossible but I know that that for me as a low time pilot I'm probably going to hit the ground if I get VRS that low. so I'll just do like the instructors say, check airspeed, VSI, level the ship if you start sinking. If anything goes wrong hit level and inline. Edited March 25, 2009 by beckwith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelFire_91 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Can a pilot recognize a vortex ring condition so close to the ground (after a quick stop) and is there a way to get out of this condition after realizing it has been initiated?Well, you should be aware of the condition before you ever even get into it. If you're pulling power, generally below 16kts, and in a moderate descent rate >300fpm you have all the criteria met. As far as being able to recover from it that close to the ground... You should be able to nose it over and get the airspeed back up, however I think they were a little too close to those trees and probably would have hit them anyway. It's always better to realize a bad situation and recover from it before it's too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 That's just the US Army's new tree trimming technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFlySky5 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Hi Thanks for sharing that link Looks like he was just way too hot and high for that LZ and elected to try to get in anyway...even after the "Wo' Horsey" maneuver didn't give him the slowing/closure drop that he hoped for! Easy to say from my chair, but I think I'd have missed approach and gone around for another approach in to the LZ. Oh a sh_thook wouldn't have made it in there either... One last thing is it looks to me like he had a bit of a tail wind here and that compounded the poor approach to this LZ...anyone kinda see it? Regards,IFlySky5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiercel Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Looks like he was just way too hot and high for that LZ and elected to try to get in anyway...even after the "Wo' Horsey" maneuver didn't give him the slowing/closure drop that he hoped for! He also may have had a slight tailwind which would explain why he came in so hot, his ground speed would have been higher than his airspeed. It might also explain why he got into settling right after he stopped, as though his downdraft, which would have been very strong, got pushed right back into him. He hung there for a split second before accelerating downward. Or was it not having enough power to hold an OGE hover once out of ETL? This is a good lesson for recognizing when to go around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 The maneuver apparently being attempted was not uncommon in my military experience, an attempt to minimize time in a hot LZ- high speed, low approach; honkin' big flare; kick'em out; exit, as fast as possible and low, screened by terrain.I don't recall it ever being formally taught or endorsed because it's not tolerant of error, one pitfall obvious in the video. Second worst result- If you blew it, you might have to do the whole thing again without the element of surprise. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't, for various reasons. If you do it, you're a hero; screw it up and you're the goat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiercel Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 The maneuver apparently being attempted was not uncommon in my military experience, an attempt to minimize time in a hot LZ- high speed, low approach; honkin' big flare; kick'em out; exit, as fast as possible and low, screened by terrain. When you do that, do you try to be closer to the ground so you end up in ground effect? The way it looked in the clip, he/she was descending and flaring with a high rate of speed which to me, risks getting into settling, and if he had gotten to a hover, he would have still been high enough to risk settling if he tried to get the helicopter to the ground too quickly. I can imagine huge vortices being pushed down from the helicopter in all directions, with a tremendous induced flow pulling them along with the helicopter, almost like creating your own tailwind. Yes, i know I have an overactive imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Q- "When you do that, do you try to be closer to the ground so you end up in ground effect?"A- It all depends on exactly what you're doing, but generally you DON"T WANT a 'flare' anywhere near ground effect. Being that low limits the magnitude of the maneuver which defeats the purpose and it's dangerous in many, many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 It's a quick stop. You have to be high enough to ensure the tail doesn't hit anything. Quick stops are lots of fun when done in a large formation, and especially when people are shooting at you while you're doing all this. I did lots of things back when I was young and ignorant that I wouldn't even consider now, but in a shooting war it's expected that people will die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin DBC Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Looks like he was just way too hot and high for that LZ and elected to try to get in anyway...even after the "Wo' Horsey" maneuver didn't give him the slowing/closure drop that he hoped for! Easy to say from my chair, but I think I'd have missed approach and gone around for another approach in to the LZ. Fully agreed. There is no way that the landing looked good from the cockpit. Go around are free... Especially when there are innocent civilians... including kids... gathered around. The maneuver apparently being attempted was not uncommon in my military experience, an attempt to minimize time in a hot LZ- high speed, low approach; honkin' big flare; kick'em out; exit, as fast as possible and low, screened by terrain. It's not uncommon to come in around 500 FPM. The only problem is that a lot of pilots first attempting this kind of approach will get the rate of decent right, but pull back on the cyclic too much. 500 FPM rate of decent + low airspeed (out of ETL) = WH-60 Weedwhacker J- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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