Switching from R-22 to Engstrom???

[ovastafford19]

     A couple years ago I was in the process of getting my private and commercial liscense and then something came up and I had to quit for awhile.  I have around 50 hours in an R22 and was almost ready to take my checkride.  I am now thinking about going back to school at Airwest Helicopter Academy in Glendale az and they use Engstrom helicopters.  Does anyone know if there will be a problem with the switch. I dont think flying will be the issue but with getting my license in a different chopper etc.... also can anyone give me feedback on this school?  Thanks

[clay]

there wont be issues. you just will have to learn to fly a real helicopter. by a "real helicopter" I'm not taking a shot at the r22 (OK, maybe i am) anyway, the big differences are going to be NO governor. depending on what kind of Enstrom they are flying, it may not even have a correlator. If it is a turbocharged Enstrom, which I am sure it is, you will have to get used to pulling 36.5 inches of manifold pressure and no more, plus the turbo lag. All of these things are easily figured out, but it is more workload than the 22. The Enstrom is also heavier, requiring you to be more "on top" of the helicopter. I am in 300's now, and was absolutely amazed at the response time of the throttle! you crack it , the RRPM responds. you have to stay in front of the Enstrom. You'll love it though. autos like a dream, extremely safe helicopter. just requires you to be more aware of what is going on and staying on top of it. I have time in an R44 now and I think the Enstrom requires you to be an more of an actual "pilot" than Robinson products. Robinson's are just too easy to fly. you turn it on, flip a switch, blades engage and off you go. make sure you get no warning lights.

 

*edit.... had to take out my hydraulics comment. . . . as you an see. I don't fly R22s.

Edited March 26, 2009 by clay

[spencer]

there wont be issues. you just will have to learn to fly a real helicopter. by a "real helicopter" I'm not taking a shot at the r22 (OK, maybe i am) anyway, the big differences are going to be the lack of hydraulics in the helicopter, and NO governor. depending on what kind of Enstrom they are flying, it may not even have a correlator. If it is a turbocharged Enstrom, which I am sure it is, you will have to get used to pulling 36.5 inches of manifold pressure and no more, plus the turbo lag. All of these things are easily figured out, but it is more workload than the 22. The Enstrom is also heavier, requiring you to be more "on top" of the helicopter. I am in 300's now, and was absolutely amazed at the response time of the throttle! you crack it , the RRPM responds. you have to stay in front of the Enstrom. You'll love it though. autos like a dream, extremely safe helicopter. just requires you to be more aware of what is going on and staying on top of it. I have time in an R44 now and I think the Enstrom requires you to be an more of an actual "pilot" than Robinson products. Robinson's are just too easy to fly. you turn it on, flip a switch, blades engage and off you go. make sure you get no warning lights.

 

 

there are no hydraulics in the r22

[rick1128]

Some of the R44's do. Besides turbo lag, the Enstrom has a high inertia rotor system. So you will need to stay ahead of the rotor RPM. Until you become use to it, you may have issues with low RPM. Not a big deal, just lower the collective and add RPM (if able) and watch the manifold pressure. The only two helicopters I have flown that Auto better than the Enstrom are the Bell 47 and the Bell 212. In the Enstrom the Autos are quite relaxed, especially when compared to the R22.

 

The same basic rules of aerodynamics apply to all helicopters. The feel may be a little different. In fact the Enstrom may spoil you. You can trim it up to the point you can take your hand off the cyclic.

 

Good luck.

[ovastafford19]

Is there any difference in operating costs between the two...?

[Goldy]

and they use Engstrom helicopters.  Does anyone know if there will be a problem with the switch.

 

 

Yes, you'll have to learn to spell Enstrom. Other than that, I think Clay probably has the most time in them. Seriously though, if they are anything like the Bell 47, you will have to learn to use the controls a bit more. In a 22, the touch is extremely light, in a 47 you have to move things around a bit to get the ship to move. I find when I fly the 47 after a couple months of flying a hydraulic 44...its like whoa!! You mean I actually have to step on these pedals!!

 

Having not flown for awhile, you will probably not even notice it and come up to speed pretty quick.

 

Goldy

[rick1128]

Is there any difference in operating costs between the two...?

 

It depends on the particular model Enstrom, but yes, they do have a higher direct operating cost than the R22. However, the Enstrom does make up for it in maintenance costs. There is NO 2200 hour overhaul at $110K plus and there are few life limited parts. Fuel burn depends on what you are doing. In my 28C I am averaging between 10 and 13 GPH. If I do a lot of hovering, it runs a solid 13 GHP. Putzing around the traffic pattern or in the local area, it runs right around 10 GPH.

 

I have flown the Bell 47 with and without boosted controls. The 47 has a heavier rotor system than the Enstrom if the 47 has metal blades. With wooden blades the 47 rotor system is of similar weight to the Enstrom. I have only flown metal blade 47's. The boosted 47 felt much like the Enstrom and the non-boosted 47 felt a little heavier than the Enstrom.

 

Personally, I don't think you will any problem picking up the Enstrom. Once you get used to the turbo lag and heavier rotor system, you'll wounder why you ever started in the Robbinson.

[ovastafford19]

O yeah sorry about the spelling..... well thanks for all the help.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I think you will transition quite well. It's easier to go from an R-22 to something else than the other way around. I found that out the hard way.

 

I have time in the F28F. I found it easy to fly once I got used to the larger cabin and overall size of the helicopter. The autos were awesome compared to what I was used to. So far it has the best auto characteristics of anything I've flown.

 

I think you will like it.

 

JD

[Goldy]

There is NO 2200 hour overhaul at $110K plus and there are few life limited parts.

 

 

Rick- can you expand a bit on this? What would you estimate your parts/labor replacment costs at, after 2000 hours or so of flight time?

[clay]

if you take good care of it and maintain it, not to much. Enstrom has the lowest amount of time life components. the school i went to had i THINK almost 4,000 hrs on the set of blades he had running one helicopter. Rick, do you remember how many hours were on 287Q's blades?

[rick1128]

if you take good care of it and maintain it, not to much. Enstrom has the lowest amount of time life components. the school i went to had i THINK almost 4,000 hrs on the set of blades he had running one helicopter. Rick, do you remember how many hours were on 287Q's blades?

 

Clay,

 

I don't remember, but the blades used to be on condition, until they started using them on the 480, then the FAA made them put a life limit on them. The current life limit is 97,000 hours. The walking beam is 76,000 hours. So for all intends and purposes they are on condition. At the HeliExpo in Houston last year, I talked with a former pilot for the Orange County Sheriff's Dept. from OC, CA. He told me that they started their flight department with Enstroms and when they were retired, they had a couple with over 27,000 hours on them.

 

There is NO 1200 hr or 2200 hour overhaul requirement.

 

The primary time limits are:

 

Main rotor and tail rotor transmissions: 1200

Overrun clutch: 2400

Tail rotor blades 3200

tail rotor yokes 6400

Upper and lower clutch bearings: 1200

Turbocharger: 1000 or 1500 depending on which maintenance

manual you look at

Engine 1500

 

These are the items and times I remember right off the top of my head. there are some other misc. items and the times may be a little off. So refer to Chapter 5 of your maintenance manual.

[mechanic]

Here are the type cert links.

 

FAA Enstrom, click F28c and scroll to the Tables at the end, Table I.

including this on the Lamiflex bearings.

 

The following special notations augment the Service Life Tables specifying limitations and/or special

conditions associated with authorized Gross Weights and service lives. Table 1 applies to all piston

powered models. Table 2 applies to all turbine powered models.

 

Δ Retire from service 5 calendar years from date of installation or package opening, or 8 years

from date of manufacture, whichever occurs first.

 

ΔΔ Retire from service 5 calendar years from date of manufacture all Lamiflex bearings serial

number 5997 and prior.

 

Retire from service 5 calendar years from date of installation* or 8 calendar years from date of

manufacture, which ever occurs first, all Lamiflex bearings serial numbers 5998 and

subsequent.

 

*Note: Date of installation is defined as the date the Lamiflex bearing packaging is opened.

 

 

FAA Robinson, same here too. I don't like the fact that the times are not listed on this cert. You have to have the maint manual to look at them. I have viewed them, but don't recall them good enough to be quoting them here.

[rotormandan]

Does anyone know where I could find a POH for an Enstrom F-28C to download?