Commercial add on

[Joecub]

Hello everyone! Just found this site.... Maybe some of you can point me in the right direction. I'm an 11,000 hr fw guy, cfi..... I'm starting rw training next week and my local school (141) is recommending I obtain my private before pursuing my commercial... I prefer to go for my com. add on for simplicity sake. I think part of the reason for there recommendation is that I don't fit there normal profile student and there not sure how to proceed. Any suggestions? Surely there are tons of earlier discussions on this matter, but me and the search function of this site haven't come to an agreement just yet.... Joe

[HeliUtah]

...my local school (141) is recommending I obtain my private before pursuing my commercial... I prefer to go for my com. add on for simplicity sake...

I would agree with your local school. You need 50 hours pic in helicopters for your commercial add-on, and without the private, that would all have to be solo. Tough to really learn the maneuvers for the commercial without an instructor. Ge the private so the rest of the time can be spent as pic with an instructor. You will most likely spend less money, and get done in less time if you get the private first.

[Shaun]

I would agree with your local school. You need 50 hours pic in helicopters for your commercial add-on

 

I went straight to my commercial received my cert with 30 hours total helicopter. I believe it was a 141 thing. Seems like your 141 school wants your money.

[useless]

I was a 9000 hour fw guy that did the comm add-on last winter. Just went straight through with no private checkride. The 141 aspect and flying with a guy with 1000 hours flight time all in an R22 took a little mental adapting. What I learned is they can fly the hell out of that little chopper but you are probably much more versed in several other areas of operation and have much more practical experience. Also, they tend to really care about fine details that don't matter all that much, if at all.

 

Have a lot of fun! It was some of the most exciting flying I have done and I wish I had started earlier in life.

[panzer1999]

I went straight to my commercial received my cert with 30 hours total helicopter. I believe it was a 141 thing. Seems like your 141 school wants your money.

 

Wow, I'm pretty sure the FAR's say that you need 20 Dual and 35 PIC IN HELICOPTERS. I didn't realize 141 took so many hours out of the minimums.

[Shaun]

Wow, I'm pretty sure the FAR's say that you need 20 Dual and 35 PIC IN HELICOPTERS. I didn't realize 141 took so many hours out of the minimums.

 

Checking my logbook I had 15 hours of PIC when I received my commercial.

[Pohi]

Oh dear lord, not this one again...

[Inferno]

I'll go make some popcorn....

Oh dear lord, not this one again...

[rotorrodent]

Hello everyone! Just found this site.... Maybe some of you can point me in the right direction. I'm an 11,000 hr fw guy, cfi..... I'm starting rw training next week and my local school (141) is recommending I obtain my private before pursuing my commercial... I prefer to go for my com. add on for simplicity sake. I think part of the reason for there recommendation is that I don't fit there normal profile student and there not sure how to proceed. Any suggestions? Surely there are tons of earlier discussions on this matter, but me and the search function of this site haven't come to an agreement just yet.... Joe

 

From experience and being inconsiderate of time requirements, do the private first. There was no way that I would have been prepared nor proficient doing the commercial first. Keep in mind also, that FW pilots need to unlearn some habit patterns, and you can't do that in minimum time. Time and experience is muscle memory in a helicopter.

 

Personally, I seek all the experience I can get regardless of the minimum FAA time requirements. As an old saying goes, "every storm ridden through makes us a better captain of our soul". Applies to helicopters too.

 

In your training, seek to learn from experience and try not to focus on minimum time requirements.

 

cheers

 

Rotorrodent

[ADRidge]

There was a fellow in almost the same situation as you who came to our school. He took his commercial checkride at 40 hours heli time. It didn't work out so well for him. I think he made it through about 20 minutes of that checkride. From what I understand, it ended up taking him quite a bit longer.

 

I'm looking at doing the opposite... commercial FW add-on. I'm doing the PPL first. Why? So I can get more comfortable with that type of flying. If you have the money, just go get your PPL first.

[r22butters]

Considering how much time we need, actually in a helicopter, to be employable, I don't see why anyone feels the need to skip the Private?

 

Are you really going to save that much money?

[Joecub]

I guess part of my problem in doing the private first (141), I'm going to vapor lock if I have to waste my money on learning meteorology, radios, navigation,basic aerodynamics,charts,aeronautical decision making, airspace.....so on and so forth,when I already teach that myself. I will go into it with an open mind, but my question is.... why do they even have a "commercial add on" if the private first is the way to go? Thanks again Joe

[Fly the LV Sky]

Private

 

© For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((3) of this part,

 

(k)(3) Except when fewer hours are approved by the Administrator, an applicant for a private pilot certificate with an airplane, rotorcraft, or powered-lift rating, who has satisfactorily completed an approved private pilot course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter, need only have a total of 35 hours of aeronautical experience to meet the requirements of this section.

 

Commercial

 

© For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—

(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and

(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127((3)

 

(i)(3) Except when fewer hours are approved by the FAA, an applicant for the commercial pilot certificate with the airplane or powered-lift rating who has completed 190 hours of aeronautical experience is considered to have met the total aeronautical experience requirements of this section

[AngelFire_91]

Checking my logbook I had 15 hours of PIC when I received my commercial.

FAR Part 141 Appendix I 3( c)(3)

 

For an additional commercial rotorcraft rating part 141, 30 hours flight training is required. It doesn't mention anything about PIC.

[warmkiter]

hi

 

got my com addon and did the ppl check first. only cause then i could log my pic required doing XC with my girlfriend on board or doing some usefull training instead of flying nonsense solo XC to get the required hrs PIC. the reqs changed and now you can log pic even with cfi on board. i would say go for the com straight away.

 

ps. its up to your confidence and your instructors accessment of your skills. dont listen to "just about to survive a checkride" guys with less hours total than we do in 3 months. for commercial pilots a checkride is daily business and nothing to be afraid of...

 

enjoy

 

L

[air_1]

 

got my com addon and did the ppl check first. only cause then i could log my pic required doing XC with my girlfriend on board or doing some usefull training instead of flying nonsense solo XC to get the required hrs PIC. the reqs changed and now you can log pic even with cfi on board. i would say go for the com straight away.

 

There is a debate going on on another forum I frequent. I know the regs have changed, but is it even possible to do the Comm add-on without doing the private? I know you can do the 10 hours w/ auth instructor instead of the 10 hours solo, but can you also do this to satisfy the 35 hours PIC requirement that's in the regs? If yes, who or what makes the determination to start logging PIC, and at what point?

[Pohi]

There is a debate going on on another forum I frequent. I know the regs have changed, but is it even possible to do the Comm add-on without doing the private? I know you can do the 10 hours w/ auth instructor instead of the 10 hours solo, but can you also do this to satisfy the 35 hours PIC requirement that's in the regs? If yes, who or what makes the determination to start logging PIC, and at what point?

 

Yes, you can go straight to a Commercial add-on, as long as the requirements are met. Under 61.63 (Additional aircraft ratings), it talks about what needs to be accomplished.

 

As far as the PIC question, the regs say...

 

c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

 

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.

 

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—

 

(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and

 

(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.

 

then a bit farther down...

 

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph ©(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127((3) that includes—

 

So, to address the last questions... Everybody is going to have their opinion, but the FAA inspector or the Designated Examiner who gives the check ride is the one whose opinion that will matter in the end.

[air_1]

 

So, to address the last questions... Everybody is going to have their opinion, but the FAA inspector or the Designated Examiner who gives the check ride is the one whose opinion that will matter in the end.

 

 

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Might as well do the private first so no questions are asked.

[rick1128]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Might as well do the private first so no questions are asked.

 

If you go straight to the commercial, there will be no questions asked. It is not a new certificate, it is an additional rating to your present commercial certificate. While the local FSDO and DPE may have their own opinions, they actually don't count, this is policy that is set by FAA Washington.

[Pohi]

If you go straight to the commercial, there will be no questions asked.

 

What questions are you talking about? I do not see what you are trying to be so witty about.

[air_1]

What questions are you talking about? I do not see what you are trying to be so witty about.

 

 

Sorry for the confusion, I meant so no questions were asked by myself. I was simply trying to determine how the 35 hours PIC could be obtained without being solo, and these answers cleared them up for me. No rhyme or reason why I wouldn't do the 35 hours solo, it was just a question I had. Thanks!

[Whistlerpilot]

So back to the OP, Joecub which way did you decide to go?

 

I just finished working with a commercial add-on, high time FW guy who went straight to the comm checkride. This was a first for me as all the other add-ons I've done did Pvt first, and this was under the new regs.

 

I don't recommend going this route, but it can be done. Importantly check with your local FSDO and DPE before preceding (Mikemv's advice). When I contacted the DPE initially he said no it can't be done. So I did more research and talked to the Renton FSDO a couple of times and poured over the new 2010 FAR's. For this particular situation it came down to logging the 35 hours PIC.

 

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph ©(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127((3) that includes—

 

This new reg is a minimum number of hours, and we were able to log the 35 hours PIC under this. In order to honestly fulfill this it takes more effort and pre-flight planning I found. The applicant has to do ALL the PIC duties, but we tried to make it as scenario based as possible.

 

He is a very experienced, talented, and in my view safe (good judgement and conservative) FW pilot. It was a big push nonetheless and the negative transfer from FW has always been a hurdle in my experience. He was pretty tired of hearing me say stop jiggling the stick!

 

Had 3 add-ons going at once but the other 2 haven't done the checkride yet and now I'm on to heliskiing. Here is a short video one of the guys did.

 

http://gallery.me.com/rv8apilot#100144

Edited November 25, 2010 by Whistlerpilot