Did you receive Good Training?

[Mikemv]

To all, it has been bugging me for a few days now about a recent emergency situation and once again seeing that pilots did not receive good training or do not understand some helicopter aerodynamics and when HV diagrams apply!

 

So, I need to list four situations and then ask a few questions to see what pilots have been taught or not!

 

We can use an R22 or S300 for thinking this through but the actual aircraft does not matter as much as the pilots thinking and response to a situation.

 

What have you been taught to do if the engine quits and:

1. you are at 40kts and 100' in level flight?

2. you are on climb out at 40kts and 100'?

3. you are descending to land and at 40kts and 100'?

4. you are in autorotation at 40kts and 100'?

 

Which of items 1 thru 4 are in a HV shaded area?

 

You can see the airspeed and altitude numbers are the same in all four cases.

 

Now for two questions:

 

1. Has anyone been taught to lower the nose to gain airspeed, do a no flare touchdown and slide?

2. Hold the attitude, flare appropriately, level and cushion?

 

If possible, please only answer the questions without explainations in this thread. Discussions can take place in another thread.

 

I am truly trying to research what pilots are taught and how they feel they would react?

 

Thanks for your input and cooperation.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike

[r22butters]

I have been taught all of those, at one time or another.

 

However, most of those scenarios were explained to me either at the RHC Safety Course, or through recurrent training, and not from my initial ratings.

[Mikemv]

I have been taught all of those, at one time or another.

 

However, most of those scenarios were explained to me either at the RHC Safety Course, or through recurrent training, and not from my initial ratings.

 

r22butters, can you answer the questions as asked please? Your reply does not answer the questions and give me any info about your training.

 

Thanks, Mike

[StanFoster]

Mike- Of course it was my flameout thread you are referring to. I came in here bellyside up freely admitting I screwed up getting into that situation. I am a fledgling helicopter pilot with one very serious byt successful auto under my belt now, but am not so thin skinned to hear more critisism on my way of handling it. I knew I was over smooth grass and that played into my decision to do an agressive run on landing versus an extremely high rate od descent that I still doubt I could have stopped by not getting some forward airspeed. I was most definately on a steep climbout at 40 mph and still say I was in the HV curve. If you look at the video, I lowered the nose just slightlyn not really diving at the ground at all, but most clearly falling. Maybe I could have made it by flaring it out, leveling the skids, and pulling

collective. But I have to tell you, I had never practiced that scenario and that was

one split second I determined to get forward speed

And slide it on instead flaring at low airspeed and hope I had enough collective. Of course if it were over rough ground, my slide on wouldn't have even been considered. I am not a pighead about this, and will practice these at altitude. I was happily flying today, after changing out my main fuel solenoid. It now requires no voltage to keep my fuel on. I am just trying to prevent my first forced landing due to mechanical failure, instead of this time when it was pilot failure. Stan name='Mikemv' date='30 November 2010 - 14:17' timestamp='1291144670' post='100528']

To all, it has been bugging me for a few days now about a recent emergency situation and once again seeing that pilots did not receive good training or do not understand some helicopter aerodynamics and when HV diagrams apply!

 

So, I need to list four situations and then ask a few questions to see what pilots have been taught or not!

 

We can use an R22 or S300 for thinking this through but the actual aircraft does not matter as much as the pilots thinking and response to a situation.

 

What have you been taught to do if the engine quits and:

1. you are at 40kts and 100' in level flight?

2. you are on climb out at 40kts and 100'?

3. you are descending to land and at 40kts and 100'?

4. you are in autorotation at 40kts and 100'?

 

Which of items 1 thru 4 are in a HV shaded area?

 

You can see the airspeed and altitude numbers are the same in all four cases.

 

Now for two questions:

 

1. Has anyone been taught to lower the nose to gain airspeed, do a no flare touchdown and slide?

2. Hold the attitude, flare appropriately, level and cushion?

 

If possible, please only answer the questions without explainations in this thread. Discussions can take place in another thread.

 

I am truly trying to research what pilots are taught and how they feel they would react?

 

Thanks for your input and cooperation.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike

[clay]

i think you got it on the ground, no damage, and no injuries. who care's how you were taught. good job

Edited December 1, 2010 by clay

[Pogue]

>What have you been taught to do if the engine quits and:

>1. you are at 40kts and 100' in level flight?

>2. you are on climb out at 40kts and 100'?

>3. you are descending to land and at 40kts and 100'?

>4. you are in autorotation at 40kts and 100'?

 

In cases 1-3 I was taught to lower the collective to maintain RPM, enter autorotation, pitch for 60-70 knots IAS (OK - target 65) flare about 40' agl, level about 8' agl pull collective to cushion.

 

case 4 I'd just roll the throttle into the detent and do a touch down autorotation.

 

>Which of items 1 thru 4 are in a HV shaded area?

 

All are in the shaded area of the HV curve for the R-22, the difference is in how much time you have before you lose the RRPM to an unrecoverable state. If you are in a 5 minute limit climb your reaction time will need to be faster than if you're at 13" MAP on a descent, and of course if you're already in an auto RRPM is hopefully already stabilized.

 

>You can see the airspeed and altitude numbers are the same in all four cases.

 

>Now for two questions:

 

>1. Has anyone been taught to lower the nose to gain airspeed, do a no flare touchdown and >slide?

 

Yes - If I'm at 40 knots I would lower the nose to pick up speed, accepting the the increased rate of descent. I was not specifically taught doing a no flare touchdown, but I've done one - it becomes a power off running landing - no biggy as long as the terrain is suitable for it.

 

>2. Hold the attitude, flare appropriately, level and cushion?

 

No, I was not taught to hold the attitude, I was taught to pitch for 65 KIAS.

 

>If possible, please only answer the questions without explainations in this thread. >Discussions can take place in another thread.

 

I tried to keep it brief, without explanation I would have to say "no" to both questions since neither represents what I was taught. :-)

[kodoz]

1. 40kts and 100' in level flight? Discussion only--basically, at my level of experience, I should minimize my time in this configuration. Otherwise I'm taking that 100' and gaining what airspeed I can by lowering collective and nosing forward.[/b]

2. climb out at 40kts and 100'?Instructor demonstrated once, with power recovery; lower collective, maintain airspeed, do your best with flare while maintaining RPMs. We'd have run it on.

3. descending to land and at 40kts and 100'? Not demonstrated/taught but this would just transition to a pretty normal autorotation profile. Already being in a descent gives you some options.

4. autorotation at 40kts and 100'? Recover. Seriously, that's what CFIs are taught since you have probably been here during practice autos. If you had the RPMs, you'd gain airspeed.

 

Which of items 1 thru 4 are in a HV shaded area? 1 and 2 are in the shaded region. The H/V curve doesn't apply to 3 and 4.

 

1. Has anyone been taught to lower the nose to gain airspeed, do a no flare touchdown and slide?

2. Hold the attitude, flare appropriately, level and cushion?

 

We weren't given definitive training for these situations. The response would be dependent on altitude (to trade for airspeed) and RPMs (to trade for airspeed). I guess you'd gain as much airspeed as you could, RPMs permitting, as long as you planned to use it in a flare. Airspeed is energy, and it's better to arrive at the ground with unused energy than to use it all up before you're on the ground. So all things being equal, flaring to stop forward movement is preferable to a run on, and rolling the aircraft during a run on is preferable to running out of RPMs before skids are on the ground.

 

I know I haven't gotten adequate training on any of these scenarios.

 

Thanks to Stan for being a sport and participating in this discussion.

[Shaun]

i think you got it on the ground, no damage, and no injuries. who care's how you were taught. good job

 

My instructor served in Nam and indicated that an engine failure on takeoff was an extreme condition and to survive let alone not damage the helicopter means you did something right.

[StanFoster]

When I saw this thread started, my first thoughts were that I was going to receive chastisement, albeit it professional, about my doing a run on landing. I was preparing myself to listen to real world experts and consider your advice. It seems that the majority of you agree that I should have increased my airspeed as I did, and with a known smooth runway ahead of me, I did just that. I have got to tell you that my airspeed just prior to the flameout was decreasing, as my turbine was bogging down and my belts were slipping. The next second I was literally dropping like a rock, and I don't think I am being pigheaded when I say I don't believe I had the skills to have successfully stopped or greatly reduced my forward speed at touchdown, without impacting hard vertically. Like I first mentioned in my initial post in the forced landing thread of mine, I am a fledgling helicopter pilot and came in belly up here exposing my mistake and at the same time patting myself for saving the helicopter and my health. I have gained a most valuable lesson, and also am very thankful for having experienced the most exciting moment of my life. I can't put a price on this experience. At the same time I don't even want to think that my chances have improved on having this happen again, just because I was successful this time. I never want to be challenged like that again, once is enough and indeed the perfect number since it came out well. All I can say its value is 'priceless'. Thanks for all the excellent professional pilots that contribute to this amazing forum. I am in awe at many of your experiences. Stan- back and flying again!

[Mikemv]

To Stan, this thread was started giving 4 different scenarios of position at 40kts and and 100'. It was not about you and your name was not mentioned. You know I immediately wished you well and continued safe flying in both a PM and post!

 

To All,

 

I am actively involved in Safety and Education within the Helicopter Flight Training segment of the industry as a FAASTeam Rep and individually as a caring CFI wanting to give back to the industry.

 

Through pilot mentoring and instruction and my "C&E Seminars", I have verified that many pilots do not understand the HV Diagram and very few understand the aerodynamic transitions that the rotor system goes thru from powered flight to autorotative flight.

 

The responses here so far verify this lack of understanding and lack of training by turn over CFIs.

 

After questions are answered here by more members, I will start another thread with an explanation of things that will be informative and educational!

 

Can we please get this thread back on track with replies about the questions?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Mike

[StanFoster]

Mike- I am taking it as everyone in general...and not me specifically, although of course it was my incident.

 

 

I am obsessed with learning if "I" could gain enough skills to have pulled this off over rougher terrain where I would have had to stop as much forward speed as possible. I am just saying right now I dont think I could have pulled it off except what I did. Now...maybe down the road with lots more experience under my belt....and lots of practice autos in this scenario...I will find that my helicopter and my skills could have saved it as you mentioned. I just had all these "evil" scenarios in front of me....had never had a real auto in a helicopter...but have performed 18 in a gyroplane without incident....and I just handled it like it was a gyroplane..

 

I have lots to learn and I love to learn.

 

 

Stan

[StanFoster]

Mike- I just read your e-mail to me...and I do appreciate it and the one you sent me initially. You are sincerely trying to show me what you feel is a better way....and doing it tactfully .....which by the way you are.

 

Even if you were to have said what an idiotic way of doing that auto, it wouldnt bother my thick skin. If I had thin skin about this incident...I sure as heck wouldnt have come in voluntarily and posted what a mistake I had made.

 

What would have hurt my skin is if my auto wasnt successful.

 

Mike...again...thanks...I appreciate it.

 

 

Stan

[Mikemv]

Stan, PM sent, trying to commo with you via e-mail for some privacy.

 

mikefranz@embarqmail.com

 

Mike