Enstrom Partner Peoria Illinois

lvflyer · July 15, 2013

I am looking for partner/s for 77 Enstrom 280C Turbo in Central Illinois. I plan on using it for rides, jumps, banners, and possibly civil service. First I need to know if the asking price is reasonable. Can anyone advise? Asking is $50k for half interest and $300 per hour wet and $250 per month fixed cost. Here are the particulars. What would be the value if all components were zero time?

Total Time 6450
Annual 06/13

These are times left on components

Lamiflexes due in September
Over Clutch 2031
T/R Blade 782
T/R Blade 1581
T/R Grip 3882
T/R Grip 4581
FWD Flex Pack 1052
AFT Flx Pack 1052
Tach Drive Belts 523 days
Left Idler bearing 232
Rt Idler bearing 232
Main XMSN ASSY 384
T/R GBX 604
Engine 723
Turbocharger 312

aussiecop · August 12, 2013

My enstrom time is limited to Indiana, but that said, I could rent one from my flight school for $300-325 wet an hour, paying $50k plus $250 a month fixed cost, I would struggle to see the benefit.

lvflyer · August 13, 2013

My enstrom time is limited to Indiana, but that said, I could rent one from my flight school for $300-325 wet an hour, paying $50k plus $250 a month fixed cost, I would struggle to see the benefit.

That would depend on how much it is flown and remember the $50k comes back eventually. I don't have any around Peoria Illinois to rent so this seems to be my only option.

apiaguy · August 13, 2013

price it too steep on hourly costs for an ownership/partnership. You may find someone, but doubtful.

lvflyer · August 13, 2013

price it too steep on hourly costs for an ownership/partnership. You may find someone, but doubtful.

The Lamiflex bearings alone are $100 per month calendar limited component and the rest is for hangar and inspections. Fuel averages over $5.00 per gallon and cruise burn is 15 to 20 gallons per hour. Component times are beyond mid-life so per hour allowance is higher than Enstrom estimates. It's a tough decision when there are no helicopters to rent locally and would cost $300 to fly somewhere to rent one. Somebody wants to sell me their Hiller for $55k, but I don't think I could appeal to rides or search and rescue with that model like I could the Enstrom. At least it looks like a heavy duty helicopter and not a toy. By the way the $250 fixed is total so that would be split. The hourly I can't get around though. Roger Sharkey advises a $200 per hour reserve on mid life and with $100 in fuel and oil that is all there is. Of course the advantages are that you can take it for as long as you want and where you want and not just around the school.

Edited August 13, 2013 by lvflyer

lvflyer · August 13, 2013

The Lamiflex bearings alone are $100 per month calendar limited component and the rest is for hangar and inspections. Fuel averages over $5.00 per gallon and cruise burn is 15 to 20 gallons per hour. Component times are beyond mid-life so per hour allowance is higher than Enstrom estimates. It's a tough decision when there are no helicopters to rent locally and would cost $300 to fly somewhere to rent one. Somebody wants to sell me their Hiller for $55k, but I don't think I could appeal to rides or search and rescue with that model like I could the Enstrom. At least it looks like a heavy duty helicopter and not a toy. By the way the $250 fixed is total so that would be split. The hourly I can't get around though. Roger Sharkey advises a $200 per hour reserve on mid life and with $100 in fuel and oil that is all there is. Of course the advantages are that you can take it for as long as you want and where you want and not just around the school.

One other thought on this is the component reserve is pretty much recovered in the increased value of the aircraft as the components are replaced so nearly $200 per hour is recouped over time. Of course that all depends on market conditions and if those conditions return to what they were before this administration then it will even appreciate in value.

aussiecop · August 14, 2013

One other thought on this is the component reserve is pretty much recovered in the increased value of the aircraft as the components are replaced so nearly $200 per hour is recouped over time. Of course that all depends on market conditions and if those conditions return to what they were before this administration then it will even appreciate in value.

As apiaguy said, the costs are steep, too steep to find anyone that doesn't have extremely deep pockets. My suggestion would be to look at another Enstrom with more time left on parts to lower the cost. Talk to Randy Sharkey at Goshen air center in Indiana. That is not far from where you are, he is the Enstrom rep and was my old flight instructor. Hell of a pilot and a great dealer partner for Enstrom. Maybe a lease is the way to go if you already have business to work it for.

apiaguy · August 14, 2013

Or look at a cheaper to operate/purchase helicopter that can do most of what you are looking for...ie.. 269B

lvflyer · August 15, 2013

Or look at a cheaper to operate/purchase helicopter that can do most of what you are looking for...ie.. 269B

Thanks for all your comments and I welcome them.

I talked to Roger Sharkey and he reminded me that the actual logged time vs component time is quite a bit different so not only is the hourly costs, less gas of course, can be totally recouped because the value increases when the component is replaced. So the actual cost of operation is quite low compared to other models. This particular ship has been maintained well beyond average. Roger also told me that he would be really surprised if I have to replace or rebuild any major components for 4 years. So any partner in this would be recouping half of the hourly and the monthly since most of that is annual cost and Lamiflex bearings. In my research I am convinced that this ship is every bit, if not more than, as a R44 for a lot less cost. With what I want to do it has to look like a commercial helicopter and a R22, 269, or a Hiller just look like toys to me.

apiaguy · August 15, 2013

sounds like you just need to nut up and purchase by yourself... if anyone comes around they can pay your working rate. Partnerships are to be avoided most of the time... "hey, I need to get out of this helicopter deal... I need you to buy out my half or get someone else... I'm not going to be able to pay anymore"...

aussiecop · August 18, 2013

sounds like you just need to nut up and purchase by yourself... if anyone comes around they can pay your working rate. Partnerships are to be avoided most of the time... "hey, I need to get out of this helicopter deal... I need you to buy out my half or get someone else... I'm not going to be able to pay anymore"...

Agreed, Although I have to agree with you on Enstrom versus Hiller or R22. Again,depends on your mission. Good luck with your venture though.

lvflyer · August 18, 2013

Yep I agree with the partnership thing. The seller and I had an agreement for me to be a partner and not 1 hour after he emailed the final agreement where I was going to start the $50k transfer he emailed me and said he couldn't do it and would only sell outright. He said due to family issues, but that doesn't make sense. He was about to get $50k cash and have someone pay half of everything. So I have to assume he just didn't want me as a partner. He lowered the price by $10k, but the big problem for me is the Lamiflex bearings and the mechanic that he uses wants $8k where if I could get it to Roger Sharkey he would be more like $6k. I have a mechanic for my plane that comes to my hangar, but I've got no time to get him to Enstrom school before the bearings need replaced.

aussiecop · August 20, 2013

There are plenty of Enstroms out there. Call Randy in Goshen and see if there are any about, I know Sweet aviation in Norther Indiana just picked an F28F and the bird I trained in.

lvflyer · August 24, 2013

Ladies and Gentlemen I bit the bullet and am now owner of N624H. Thank you for all your comments and I would still like to keep in touch as I begin this journey. I arranged for the seller to take care of all the calendar timed items so I don't have to worry for another 5 years and only have to consider tach time of which the earliest is over 350 hours.

aussiecop · August 26, 2013

Fantastic, way better than a partnership. So what was your final price if you don't mind sharing?

lvflyer · August 26, 2013

$95k. A bit high, but it has been cared for exceptionally. I am flying with seller tomorrow to learn the tricks and quirks of the machine.

apiaguy · August 26, 2013

Best thing you could do off the start is install a landing gear actuated Hobbs for maintenance tracking. Looks awesome. Congrats and good luck in the adventure.

lvflyer · August 26, 2013

Best thing you could do off the start is install a landing gear actuated Hobbs for maintenance tracking. Looks awesome. Congrats and good luck in the adventure.

According to Roger all the factory TBO times are based on in the air times when collective is pulled. He told me the 380 hours left on the main transmission would probably be 500 logged flight hours. That is another benefit to Enstrom ownership.

aussiecop · August 27, 2013

Oh, you'll get used to "the Enstrom shuffle". I hope you don't have a big frame like me, I always had issues with the clutch handle and my big legs getting in the way. That said, they are a wonderful bird. Congrats and 95k is a decet price especially with what you have left in hours before isgnificant work. What are you planning to do with it, is it just personal or you are going to work it?

lvflyer · August 27, 2013

My goal is to at the least have my flying paid for. I'll be limited in what I can do commercially because there is no way that I can afford any kind of insurance. The previous owner has built a reputation of selling rides in it and has done pretty well at weekend fly-ins. He has also provided it as a platform for aerial photography for a real estate adency. I plan on approaching some of the agencys around here and offering those services. I'm going ot attempt to make it and myself available to local law enforcement and munincipalities, but the insurance thing might get in the way. I am also going to submit it to the Coast Guard Auxair, but that might be a crap shoot. Recently I was put in contact with a local jump club to fly their jump plane. At that time I told them of my plans and they have expressed interest for occasional jumps. Lots of factors there though. I also own a Mooney and would like to incorporate it and the Enstrom in some type of aviation related venture, but with all the commercial transport regulations that only tend to protect the big conglomerates it will be difficult. Banner towing would be another option, but who in a small farm community would want banner advertising for the local minor league ball game? There is also pipeline patrol, but I am finding that is usually contracted with bigger outfits now. Worse case scenario it becomes a hangar Queen till the market changes.

Edited August 27, 2013 by lvflyer

lvflyer · August 29, 2013

I've got a few questions for you seasoned Enstrom pilots.

When I flew this with the seller a couple days ago it was in the 90s at 2000 altitude so near 6000 density. The seller said he never leans the mixture. Roger just told me that the mixture should have been leaned and I would have had plenty of power and not got the constant overboost light. I know the dangers of leaning with no flywheel, but I have always wondered about the loss of power available in a rich condition. Do you guys lean and what is your best method? Also this has a Gem in it so I have complete information on every cylinder and turbo inlet temps.

Is it very difficult to install shoulder harnesses in the 280C? Does it require an A&P?

What is your methodology in managing the turbo and throttle?

280fxColorado · August 30, 2013

Absolutely lean out that mixture. Use the GEM and adjust the mixture as necessary throughout different phases of flight. In higher DA conditions you will be primarily limited by CHT. In colder temps, EGT/TIT will be the limiting factor. Your engine is redlined at 450F (500 in later models) and 1650 EGT, but I am reluctant to run above 400/1600 continuously. The engine produces maximum power between 1450 and 1550F EGT. A rough starting point should be 1500F EGT in a hover, right in the middle of the max power band. If hovering continuously, you will have to enrich mixture to keep CHT down. Once in cruise flight, you can lean out as far as you can keeping CHT <400, EGT under 1600. Remember to enrich it again prior to landing or increasing power substantially. 29" MP and 1500F EGT is a good target for adjusting mixture prior to landing. The GEM is an outstanding tool for optimizing your fuel mixture for ideal engine performance/economy. It also helps you spot and troubleshoot engine troubles long before you'd otherwise notice. Use it constantly.

Methodology in managing turbo/throttle- Less is more. Apply micropressure and wait for the response. Learn to anticipate changing power demands. Remember turbo-lag and high inertia rotor system create a significant delay between your input and the engine's stabilized reaction. Think 10 seconds ahead and act 2-3 seconds ahead of power demands. The best method involves simultaneous, coordinated changes in throttle and collective pitch. You'll get a hang of it.

If you don't already have a copy, make sure to read Enstrom's piston training manual through and through. link: http://www.m1heli.com/f28f-and-280fx-training-guide.pdf

Regards,

--JMc

lvflyer · August 30, 2013

Thanks I read that guide. Does it apply to the older 280C? When leaning in flight I keep being told because there isn't a flywheel that the engine will quit right away. In my Mooney I back it out till engine runs rough then back in a turn or two or until I feel it smooth out. I assume if you back it out in the Enstrom till running rough it will quit?

280fxColorado · August 30, 2013

You're only leaning out to 100-200f rich of peak in flight, not past it. Lean it out at idle on the ground till RPM peaks and then gets rough, note the position of the vernier mixture control. You'll be well rich of that position.

apiaguy · August 30, 2013

Don't lean til rough in the helicopter. Your correct that is overkill compared to the airplane

The 280c is exactly the same as the newer ships (meaning it flys the same... Only difference in engine operating is 3050 rpm and different manifold limits...the newer models have a larger upper pulley to compensate fir the higher engine rpm)

Like 280fx said. The lag is what you have to get used to. The aircraft will perform you just have ti wait for it