pilot#476398 Posted October 14, 2013 Posted October 14, 2013 Yes, simulated LTE, although Tim Tucker swears it's "nearly impossible" to get LTE in a Robinson helicopter. As soon as you take your feet off in the hover the helicopter begins to yaw to the right, once you roll off the throttle you obviously remove the torque and then it's just a normal hover auto. We actually flew from the factory up to Hawthorn airfield and did a few patterns there. They send people to different areas. An instructor did that with me once, only after I took my feet off the pedals he slammed in the right one! Fun times! Quote
Counterrotate Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 An instructor did that with me once, only after I took my feet off the pedals he slammed in the right one! Fun times!Was that an accident? Or on purpose? When I taught in Robbies, I remember that simply removing left pedal pressure was enough to get a very good spin going, and going more than 1 full revolution was pretty much suicidal. When I taught tail rotor failure (Not LTE, two different things), I would usually only let it go 90 or 180 degrees before I would intervene, that is, if the student didn't react in a timely manner. I would hope they would chop that throttle before reaching the 90 degree point. Quote
pilot#476398 Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Was that an accident? Or on purpose? When I taught in Robbies, I remember that simply removing left pedal pressure was enough to get a very good spin going, and going more than 1 full revolution was pretty much suicidal. When I taught tail rotor failure (Not LTE, two different things), I would usually only let it go 90 or 180 degrees before I would intervene, that is, if the student didn't react in a timely manner. I would hope they would chop that throttle before reaching the 90 degree point. On purpose LTE training. We didn't even make it to 180 by the time I chopped the throttle, but we were in the 44. I can see taking your feet off while cruising for tail rotor failure, but in a hover how do you tell the difference between that and LTE? Quote
nightsta1ker Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Didn't you read the latest safety notice? LTE is not possible in Robinson helicopters . I find their certainty suspicious, but based off of my experience, this is true. I have never run out of pedal, even when flying in conditions that were near the limits. The unanticipated yaw that comes from certain wind and rotor vortex combinations is correctable by quickly applying the necessary amount of pedal. I firmly believe that most LTE cases are caused by the pilot's failure to react to unanticipated yaw. If the helicopter starts spinning to the right, and left pedal will not stop it, you probably lost your tail rotor or had a drive system failure. I would imagine this would be accompanied by noise and or a pedal kick. If such a thing happens, a throttle chop is the only solution. If you experience "LTE", Swift application of pedal will stop (or at least slow) the yaw. I definitely would not chop the throttle any time you experience an unanticipated yaw, especially when flying in windy conditions. Quote
Counterrotate Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 One thing is for sure, throttle chops should NOT be taught as corrective action for LTE. Immediate pedal response should, and I think in most cases, it would be sufficient. I am sure that there are situations that could cause a complete loss of tailrotor effectiveness, even on a Robbie, but they probably started with the pilot not reacting quickly enough, or with the pilot operating in conditions they shouldn't. If you teach pilots to chop the throttle and hover auto any time they experience an unanticipated yaw, there is an accident in their future. Quote
nightsta1ker Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 One thing is for sure, throttle chops should NOT be taught as corrective action for LTE. Immediate pedal response should, and I think in most cases, it would be sufficient. I am sure that there are situations that could cause a complete loss of tailrotor effectiveness, even on a Robbie, but they probably started with the pilot not reacting quickly enough, or with the pilot operating in conditions they shouldn't. If you teach pilots to chop the throttle and hover auto any time they experience an unanticipated yaw, there is an accident in their future. I don't think people are actually being taught to stop LTE with a throttle chop, I think JCM5 misunderstood the purpose of the training. Loss of Tail Rotor. Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness. Sound similar but are two very different things, with very different causes, and require very different reactions (in my opinion). I would be very curious to see what Tim Tucker has to say about this. Quote
ridethisbike Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 I'm sure he would agree. Loss of TR Thrust is a mechanical condition. LTE is aerodynamic. That's the way I was taught, anyways. Also, nightsta1ker, Jared was my IP at the factory course as well. He showed me that collective pump thing as well. More as a way to "pump the brakes" as he called it. I didn't really look to see what it was doing regarding ROD or anything though (we were in the glide) because he showed me this after I was told no about a full down. I did however take that collective pump back to flight school and put it to use in the flare as a way to pump the brakes when I'm going long and need to stop quickly with an aggressive flare to hit my spot. Might've learned more at that course than I originally thought... Quote
Flying Pig Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) Whatever the collective pump thing is, I'd suggest leaving it behind when move on out of R22s. I have a whopping 15hrs in R22s, but I'm not sure why you can't just smoothly apply the collective in the flare like the rest of the world does. I did my CFI in R22s (which is where my time came from) and they were pretty simple to auto without doing any collective pumping. Edited October 15, 2013 by Flying Pig Quote
pilot#476398 Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Does anyone use forward cyclic to get out of LTE? Quote
nightsta1ker Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Does anyone use forward cyclic to get out of LTE?In my experience, real unanticipated yaw (LTE) happens so fast you don't have time to accelerate away from it. You could be 180 degrees in the opposite direction by the time the helicopter reacts to your forward cyclic input. The pedals are much more responsive. Quote
Flying Pig Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Assuming you have any pedal left to put in. Ive been in the mountains a number of times (MD500E) going into an area all set up, everything looks good, and suddenly your left pedal ends up at the stop and you start your right yaw. All you can do is fly out of it. Ive had to shoot several approaches to the same spot until I found an angle that works. If you are talking about sitting in a hover? Yeah, youll snap around and all you can do is full left pedal and hope it stops. The only time Ive had that happen was long lining in a bowl at about 4500' but I only turned about 90 degrees. It got my attention but it stopped and was happy where it stopped, so I stayed pointing in that direction and continued on. Quote
pilot#476398 Posted October 15, 2013 Posted October 15, 2013 One thing is for sure, throttle chops should NOT be taught as corrective action for LTE. Immediate pedal response should, and I think in most cases, it would be sufficient. I am sure that there are situations that could cause a complete loss of tailrotor effectiveness, even on a Robbie, but they probably started with the pilot not reacting quickly enough, or with the pilot operating in conditions they shouldn't. If you teach pilots to chop the throttle and hover auto any time they experience an unanticipated yaw, there is an accident in their future. You say left pedal should be sufficient, but what if its not and you're still spinning? What will you do then? Quote
ridethisbike Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 What can you do? Get it back under control. That can either include flying out of it or doing what's needed to not churn up dirt and wait for the ride to end. Quote
ridethisbike Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Yea... then take away all the torque while you have a boot full of left pedal. Sounds like an AWESOME idea.... Quote
pilot#476398 Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 It can't be any worse than continuing to spin around with a boot full of left pedal! Quote
aeroscout Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I really would love to attend this course.Maybe someday ! Quote
Sonic04GT Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 It can't be any worse than continuing to spin around with a boot full of left pedal!Haha. The RHC Safety Course was a good experience by the way. Highly recommended. Quote
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