Logging 44 time

[ANUBIS]

Hey every body just a quick question

 

I have been flying the R44 for the last 6 months and I have been told by some of my fellow pilots that I can add an additional .2 to my flight because the hobbs is collective activated and when running up and cooling down the hobbs is not turning.

 

what are your thoughts about this?

[cctk2]

Well....................

Youl find argument both sides.....

Personally, if it aint flyin, it aint flight time. Keep it easy for yourself... note hobbs, beginning and end, and youre done... gnight.

[warpig]

i see it in this manner.. if those blades are spinning, and somehting happens even if you arent airborne YOU are still pic and YOU will be held responsible. anything under power you are liable for should something happen so log it from the time you start up.

[klas]

http://www.faasafety.gov/hottopics.aspx?id=20

 

Part 1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations contains definitions of terms used. It defines the following:

 

Flight time means:

 

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

 

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time is the time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

 

Time in service, with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.

 

Neither definition talks about tachometers or Hobbs meters, and clearly, they are not the same times. The term, “block to block” is a convenient way of describing “flight time”. It means that the aircraft has been started and may have been running for some period of time, but “flight time” doesn’t begin until it moves for the purpose of flight. The tachometer will have certainly begun recording time as soon as the engine was started, and the Hobbs meter, depending on how it is installed, may have begun recording as soon as power was applied to the aircraft. “Flight time” ends when the aircraft terminates at its parking location even if the engine continues to be operated for some period of time. Pilots, who log “flight time” based on tachometer readings or a Hobbsmeter, may be in error.

[bpattison]

http://www.faasafety.gov/hottopics.aspx?id=20

 

Part 1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations contains definitions of terms used. It defines the following:

 

Flight time means:

 

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

 

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time is the time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

 

Time in service, with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.

 

Neither definition talks about tachometers or Hobbs meters, and clearly, they are not the same times. The term, “block to block” is a convenient way of describing “flight time”. It means that the aircraft has been started and may have been running for some period of time, but “flight time” doesn’t begin until it moves for the purpose of flight. The tachometer will have certainly begun recording time as soon as the engine was started, and the Hobbs meter, depending on how it is installed, may have begun recording as soon as power was applied to the aircraft. “Flight time” ends when the aircraft terminates at its parking location even if the engine continues to be operated for some period of time. Pilots, who log “flight time” based on tachometer readings or a Hobbsmeter, may be in error.

[bpattison]

This comes up often. When I was building time in some seaplanes (expensive ones...) I could taxi out onto the water, fly a quick 5 minute pattern (not actually required because I have already started to "move" under my own power for the purpose of flight), land on the water, shut down, sail (must continue "moving" continuously - can't stop!) in the gentle breeze for a couple of hours, start up and fly another 10 minutes then return to the dock. The legal FAA "flight time" would be 2 hours + 20 minutes plus the time back to the dock. Aircraft time would be 20 minutes. For helicopters the same would apply if on the water and you kept "moving". All this was "approved" logic by the FAA (per written request for clarification about 6 years ago & reg hasn't changed since).

With a ground based helicopter it is a little more confusing. I tend to believe that when the rotors are turning a pilot is then "flying" the aircraft, but is the aircraft moving? I say it is because the rotor system is moving and the rotor system in a helicopter is the aerodynamic structure that flys and it must be controlled while it is in motion. The FAA has made it very clear that the pilot takes control when the rotors turn. Our local FAA office is divided on this and if you're in the USA and your local FAA inspector busts you for logging "extra" time I strongly doubt the FAA Adminstative Law Judge is going to overturn the local FAA inspector. These things are handled on a "you're guilty until proven innocent" basis & that's a little how it works with the FAA Admin. Law Judge process & NTSB appeals.

So, to be safe, just log the time you're in the air. If you also log when the rotors are turning I would support you (won't help you though....) and if you choose the latter don't go around advertising it, but know, there is some reasoning for logging "all" the time the rotors are turning.

My two bits...

[flingwing206]

As an ethical discussion, this topic will provide eternal fodder, because It Really Matters. In the real world, ain't nobody going to put you in a chair under a bright light and grill you on whether your Hobbes time started with the rotors or the squat switch. Log whatever you can most accurately log. We had an R44 with both a oil-pressure hobbes and a collective hobbes - the times were never more than 0.2 apart, and usually were 0.1 apart. If you want to rant about time logging issues, how about the ever-present dilemma of when the meter is between digits! (Of course I logged those flights to the hundredth of an hour...)

 

I have an ENG buddy who uses his Garmin GPS to log his flight time - problem is, whenever he holds a zero-groundspeed hover, it stops logging! Despite this, he's managing to survive.

Edited December 11, 2005 by flingwing206

[bpattison]

As an ethical discussion, this topic will provide eternal fodder, because It Really Matters. In the real world, ain't nobody going to put you in a chair under a bright light and grill you on whether your Hobbes time started with the rotors or the squat switch. Log whatever you can most accurately log. We had an R44 with both a oil-pressure hobbes and a collective hobbes - the times were never more than 0.2 apart, and usually were 0.1 apart. If you want to rant about time logging issues, how about the ever-present dilemma of when the meter is between digits! (Of course I logged those flights to the hundredth of an hour...)

 

I have an ENG buddy who uses his Garmin GPS to log his flight time - problem is, whenever he holds a zero-groundspeed hover, it stops logging! Despite this, he's managing to survive.

 

 

I wish our Hobbs meter measured in 1/100th like the tach meter in some prop airplanes.

[Skids Up]

I wish our Hobbs meter measured in 1/100th like the tach meter in some prop airplanes.

 

Why, so you could have 100.01 hours?

 

It's alway seems more important when you starting to build time, but in your next 100 hours, 1,000 hours, or 10,000 hours, a .1 or .2 here and there, doesn't make a lot of difference.

 

So....

 

Pretend you own it, and log it accordinally.

 

Pretend you work for the owner, and log it accordinally.

 

Pretend you work for the owner and you want him to stay in business and keep you flying, and log it accordinally.

 

Pretend you have to pay for every hour the rest of your life, and log it accordinally.

 

Pretend there is someone who cares if you have 100.01 or 100.09 hours...

 

Pretend that when you show up with a bunch of "ground idle/taxi/sailing" time, no one will notice your lack of experience...

 

Pretend when you look in the mirror in the morning, that you like the way you log your hours.

 

[Gerhardt]

Crudely said but I concur with the sentiment.

[bpattison]

Crudely said but I concur with the sentiment.

 

 

I agree with everything you said. The only reason I brought up the Hobbs meter that records in 1/100th is for billing purposes only in that we have several people that use it and every 1/10th is $65.00. Purely for convenience in this one particular situation. No big deal anyway, it would just be a bit better than what we have now.

[blave]

Three thoughts:

 

1. My personal rule, as a renting pilot, is simple: I log what I pay for. In the R44, it's "collective up" time. In the R22 and S300, it's "engine on" time. Either way, it's bloody expensive! 8^) . It averages out in the end...

 

2. Most (all?) of the minimums in the industry are directly related to insurance coverage reasons - which in my mind are somewhat arbitrary or worse - there are 5000 hour pilots that are a much higher risk than some 1000 hour folks that are more skilled and/or are more safety-conscious - and as someone said here, no-one's going to shine a bright light in your face and ask you how many of your logged hours are when the aircraft is moving at a non-zero-knot airspeed.

 

3. IMO (not that the FAA would agree with me) the helicopter is a different beast than any fixed wing aircraft - as long as those blades are turning, the PIC has a bunch of things to be thinking about and "be responsible for". For instance - one time I had just started an S300C and was engaging the MR, when the ship started to vibrate in a serious manner. To be honest I wasn't sure what to do, so I rolled the power on to "flight RPM", thinking that I had some sort of resonance situation going on. The vibration went away, but it could've gone the other way and I'd be sitting or lying in $200K worth of wreckage. I logged that 0.3 hours of startup time!!! (The MR dampers were changed on that aircraft shortly after this incident, BTW.)

 

There are a number of other situations that can occur and result in high dollar damage to the aircraft when it's still on the ground, that are unique to helicopters, so my concience is clear in logging hours as I have described.

 

 

Dave Blevins