Reality Check?

[Marc W]

For arguments sake Lets say the I signed up for flight training and paid in advance my entire tuition. Then tomorrow the War in Iraq ended and in the next two years, while I am getting my training and additional 800 hours teaching, every pilot in Iraq returned home. Would I stand a chance of getting a job anywhere but Guam? I imagine they have much better training and many more hous than I could ever hope to amass.

 

Anyone have any input?

[tomw]

first off, why are you paying for all your training up front? Thats ignant and thats wrong right thar!

 

I wouldnt think it would make that much of a dent in things. Just because there is no war (which there always is according to the military; I know I, I was in it) the military does not make a habit of just letting pilots head off into the civilian world. Most pilots end up staying in the military for a career because by the time they are pilots they have already invested about 4-5 years into the military (schooling and such), add another 4-6 years on that for the general requirement an officer is obligated to the military upon completion of ROTC ect. By the time they are finished with their first tour they will be approaching halfway to retirement. However, it is true that some military pilots are not officers and have less obligation to the military as far as time goes, but that is fairly rare and is pretty much limited to the reserves. On top of that, from what I have seen, those who were pilots in the military generally tend to move on to business type jobs once out of the military. Part of that is because they have to spend another $30-60k to get certified to fly civilian. Only a small portion (if any) of military flight time applies to civil flight certs.

 

But, that is not to say the job market is not going to be beyond satuaration if SSH ever graduates all its students. That should be your primary concern unless you are just a hot-shot pilot and know big people.

[Gerhardt]

If you spent $70K on training and then every pilot in Iraq came home...I'd say it was money well spent.

[Marc W]

first off, why are you paying for all your training up front? Thats ignant and thats wrong right thar!

 

I wouldnt think it would make that much of a dent in things. Just because there is no war (which there always is according to the military; I know I, I was in it) the military does not make a habit of just letting pilots head off into the civilian world. Most pilots end up staying in the military for a career because by the time they are pilots they have already invested about 4-5 years into the military (schooling and such), add another 4-6 years on that for the general requirement an officer is obligated to the military upon completion of ROTC ect. By the time they are finished with their first tour they will be approaching halfway to retirement. However, it is true that some military pilots are not officers and have less obligation to the military as far as time goes, but that is fairly rare and is pretty much limited to the reserves. On top of that, from what I have seen, those who were pilots in the military generally tend to move on to business type jobs once out of the military. Part of that is because they have to spend another $30-60k to get certified to fly civilian. Only a small portion (if any) of military flight time applies to civil flight certs.

 

But, that is not to say the job market is not going to be beyond satuaration if SSH ever graduates all its students. That should be your primary concern unless you are just a hot-shot pilot and know big people.

 

.... if SSH ever graduates all its students. What does this mean?

[RotorWeed]

All of the millitary helicopter pilots I know came back and took jobs in the corporate world upon return from duty. The pay is higher and there is more room for advancement. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Rotor

[fry]

For arguments sake Lets say the I signed up for flight training and paid in advance my entire tuition. Then tomorrow the War in Iraq ended and in the next two years, while I am getting my training and additional 800 hours teaching, every pilot in Iraq returned home. Would I stand a chance of getting a job anywhere but Guam? I imagine they have much better training and many more hous than I could ever hope to amass.

 

Anyone have any input?

 

That whole "increasing demand for pilots due to retiring VN era pilots" discussion is moot. It is a non-issue. It's just a marketing pitch used by the schools. There is not now, and will not be in the foreseeable future, a shortage of pilots. That is, not to the extent that getting a job as a pilot is going to be any easier in the future or that the compensation structure or working conditions are going to change materially.

 

Just the fact that schools like SSH are using this marketing pitch says something about its logic. A better pitch would be that the use of helicopters in commercial operations is increasing and therefore the demand for pilots will increase. But the fact is that is not happening. The flight hours of commerical operations...excluding training...are not increasing much at all. So the schools use this bogus pitch about retiring pilots instead.

 

The school's themselves demonstrate the nonsense in that pitch. There are just too many people willing to pay a foolish amount of money to get trained for there to be a shortage in the future pool of commercial pilots.

 

If you've got the dream to fly for a living and you are willing to accept the industry for what it is then go for it. But you are never going to make money being an airborne truckdriver and the working conditions are going to remain as they are for most if not all of your career. You would probably get more bang for your schooling buck by going to college and getting a degree with some flexibility in the job market and then flying for fun.

[RotorWeed]

If you've got the dream to fly for a living and you are willing to accept the industry for what it is then go for it. But you are never going to make money being an airborne truckdriver and the working conditions are going to remain as they are for most if not all of your career. You would probably get more bang for your schooling buck by going to college and getting a degree with some flexibility in the job market and then flying for fun.

 

I agree with getting more bang for your buck going to college and getting a degree. All my military helicopter pilot friends have left the service, gotten their MBA's. Now they have corporate jobs making 100k a year. I work a corporate job also and fly for fun. For me it’s more rewarding. Sitting around for 28 days straight waiting for a call to go fly doesn’t appeal to me.

 

There is a shortage of "qualified" helicopter pilots. PHI or Air Methods aren't hiring 300hr CFII's to fly EC135's. You need 1k-2khrs to find a decent paying job in this industry.

[tomw]

.... if SSH ever graduates all its students. What does this mean?

it means that in all probability SSH will collapse and run with the money before even half their billion current students get to the commercial training phase.

[flingwing206]

That whole "increasing demand for pilots due to retiring VN era pilots" discussion is moot. It is a non-issue. It's just a marketing pitch used by the schools. There is not now, and will not be in the foreseeable future, a shortage of pilots. That is, not to the extent that getting a job as a pilot is going to be any easier in the future or that the compensation structure or working conditions are going to change materially.

Hmmm. I was told by the HR director of PHI that he has to hire 120 pilots in the next year. I have a 600-hour instrument student who got his IFR ticket less than 2 months ago going for a SIC interview in the Gulf next week. I have been offered three jobs in the last two weeks, and I'm not looking. Every operator I know (or know of) of, from fire-fighting to tours, is looking for qualified pilots.

 

What there is no shortage of is 200~500-hour commercially-rated helicopter pilots who have no IFR rating and who don't want to teach. PIC minimums have not changed, nor will they anytime soon. However, if you have 1,000 hours PIC, a commercial/instrument rating, are able to pass a Class 2 medical exam, and have half a brain, you can find a job paying more than $42,000 within 24 hours (excluding weekends and holidays, of course).

[fry]

Hmmm. I was told by the HR director of PHI that he has to hire 120 pilots in the next year. I have a 600-hour instrument student who got his IFR ticket less than 2 months ago going for a SIC interview in the Gulf next week. I have been offered three jobs in the last two weeks, and I'm not looking. Every operator I know (or know of) of, from fire-fighting to tours, is looking for qualified pilots.

 

What there is no shortage of is 200~500-hour commercially-rated helicopter pilots who have no IFR rating and who don't want to teach. PIC minimums have not changed, nor will they anytime soon. However, if you have 1,000 hours PIC, a commercial/instrument rating, are able to pass a Class 2 medical exam, and have half a brain, you can find a job paying more than $42,000 within 24 hours (excluding weekends and holidays, of course).

 

I'm sure you're right. But you're generalizing the issue with your own personal anecdotes (SSH relies on exactly that kind of evidence to justify their claims...e.g., there are certainly pilots somewhere making $100k a year). I'm sure the HR director is looking to hire 120 pilots next year. I am also sure he will find them because they are out there...plenty of them. Even if he starts coming up short he can adjust the minimums slightly to fill his quota. But as you indicate he won't adjust his hiring criteria sufficiently to change the fundamental level of the pilot pool...because he doesn't have to. They are flowing in as fast as they are flowing out. What you are describing is the normal ebb and flow in the market for pilots not, as SSH states in their sales pitch about retiring VN pilots, a significant shift in the bargaining power between pilots and the operators.

 

Therefore, retiring VN era pilots will not make it any more or less difficult to get a job (i.e., minimum requirements will not change) than it has been in the past. And so my point, that prospective students seeking to make a career as a pilot should look at the industry realistically and as it currently exists because it is not going to change anytime soon. Ergo, SSH claim is a BS sales pitch.

 

But, since most of SSH's inductees do little or no research before getting their parents to co-sign away their retirement we are probably wasting our keystrokes here.

[AeronauticallyInclined]

........ Part of that is because they have to spend another $30-60k to get certified to fly civilian. Only a small portion (if any) of military flight time applies to civil flight certs.

 

 

TOMW,

 

Where are you getting these figures from? When I graduate Army flight school in a month from now I WILL have a commercial instrument FAA rating at NO additional cost except for a small fee($100) to take a military competency test. Oh and as far as I have been told ALL OF OUR TIME COUNTS. And the way things are going now it is very easy to get hours. Also the commitment for a Army pilot is only 6yrs after flight school which is about a year and a half.

 

-Adam

[tomw]

Unless this is a new or recently modified program due to the military's need for pilots, military time does NOT count for civil time. Who is paying for your training, is it a fully government funded program or do you have to pay them back? That could make a difference on what they give you as far as civil/commercial licenses go. If THEY are paying for all of it, I gaurantee you wont be able to walk out of the military and fly commercially without significant re-training. Depending on what school you go to, and how fast you advance through traniing the figures of $30-60k are good estimates for most prior military pilots.

 

If you are so inclined please provide everyone here with links to supported documentation and addmission requirements of the program you are in, if what you say is true it will interest many.

[Hawkdriver]

Unless this is a new or recently modified program due to the military's need for pilots, military time does NOT count for civil time. Who is paying for your training, is it a fully government funded program or do you have to pay them back? That could make a difference on what they give you as far as civil/commercial licenses go. If THEY are paying for all of it, I gaurantee you wont be able to walk out of the military and fly commercially without significant re-training. Depending on what school you go to, and how fast you advance through traniing the figures of $30-60k are good estimates for most prior military pilots.

 

If you are so inclined please provide everyone here with links to supported documentation and addmission requirements of the program you are in, if what you say is true it will interest many.

 

With FAA medical I could get out today and get a job as any other commercial rated helicopter pilot could.

 

 

FAR 61.73 Military pilots or former Military pilots: Special rules.

 

Take a peek.

 

I guess I better turn my CIVILIAN COMMERCIAL PILOT ROTARY HELICOPTER INSTRUMENT rating back in.

 

And if you would, could you please:

 

If you are so inclined please provide everyone here with links to supported documentation and addmission requirements of the program you are in, if what you say is true it will interest many.

 

 

Now just to add to the topic:

 

As mentioned before, Military Pilots, specifically Army Aviators all have an required term of service upon completion of flight school. Additionally they incur additional ADSO's as terms of contracts for follow on schools, bonuses, tuition assistance and promotions. Its not like you go in serve a tour in combat and are able to get out.

 

I think the mandatory retirement age of the large pool of Vietnam era helicopter pilots has some to do with the market increasing in relation to new helicopter jobs. Alot has to do with increased demand for rotary wing services, EMS, transport and the like as well as the development of more powerful and active helicopter unions in the industry.

 

The reality is that there wont be a mass exodus of rotary wing Aviators anytime soon from the Army.

[tomw]

Ok...I accept...

 

Now answer this....

 

Why is there currently a retired 10,000hr heli pilot Navy commander in Silver State Helicopters training program in San Diego (starting at 0 hrs)? Can you elaborate if there is a difference between the Army and all the other branches regarding this matter?

[Hawkdriver]

Ok...I accept...

 

Now answer this....

 

Why is there currently a retired 10,000hr heli pilot Navy commander in Silver State Helicopters training program in San Diego (starting at 0 hrs)? Can you elaborate if there is a difference between the Army and all the other branches regarding this matter?

 

 

If he has 10000 hours he has 10000 hours. Civilan, mililtary, it's all the same.

 

I cant answer as to why he is starting at zero unless he lost his military flight records and didnt keep a log, or maybe you misunderstood, which is understandable too. He might be there for his CFI/CFII or ATP ratings too. He might have not of taken the test and applied before getting out and let 12 months go between trying to get his ticket. Its hard to tell by not talking to him. Either way, every hour logged in the military counts.

 

There is no difference when it comes to the branches of the military. 61.73 is pretty specific.

[cross-eyed]

I'm going to interject a little ignorance into this conversation. Would the difference be in the way the FAA treats time in a non-FAA certified aircraft for purposes of fullfilling FAA certification requirements? I'm not sure specifically what the regulation states and am, frankly, too lazy to research it for this discussion (although I find this thread extremely interesting). If the hours are in FAA certified aircraft (and meet part 61 training/experience regs), they count toward FAA pilot certification requirements. I know my cop friends who fly the ex-army OH58's cannot use their time in that aircraft to fulfill FAA certification requirements because they are not FAA certified aircraft. Beyond that, I would think that the hours, and how they were aquired, are a mainly a matter of interest to the hiring operator and their insurance company, not the FAA. If I was hiring, I would sure "count" those hours flown in the military as long as the person is FAA certified for the job required and meet my insurer's standards. Then I would want to see if their experience (aircraft type, mission experience, etc.) fits the job, etc. just as I would with any non-military experienced applicant.