Negative Article on Helicopters in the Grand Canyon

[mechanic]

Joker,

 

All you have to do is go an read his posts on "Save Our Canyons" and you will see that he seems to be against ALL aviation not just the helicopter industry. He is keeping up on all the FAA dealings in Salt Lake, Utah. If you want to keep chatting with this guy, then fine.

 

 

more info

[David Witherspoon]

Tuff crowd.

 

If you think I'm an annoying troll, then: Don't Feed the Trolls.

They eventually go away. Even if they don't, if you ignore them long enough, they stop bothering you.

 

 

Hey, instead of reading all that old junk (and I do apologize for the state of that half-abandoned bulletin board, I promise to upgrade it up soon!), why not look through a draft of an article that will probably go into the next SOC newsletter? It's a retrospective on the FAA's Northern Utah Airspace Initiative debacle. If you're curious about how the other side thinks, well - here we are.

Rip into it.

 

FWIW - I have enjoyed (and will continue to enjoy) the services of fixed-wing and rotorcraft pilots. I appreciate the consummate skill of some of the pilots I've flown with - particularly one guy in Venezuela, who flew a tiny four-seater through vigorous afternoon turbulence (it felt like the plane was hopping sideways as much as ten feet sometimes) over the jungle, then pulled off a feather-soft perfect three-point landing, the like of which I've never felt before or after. The name of his plane was "Paracaidista II" - Parachutist II. Naturally, that name initially caused me some concern, as I was not provided with a chute.

 

Witch - haven't done any real research on such predator-prey dynamics - believe it or not, such a simple experiment turns out to be really hard to work with and incredibly complex. But it's an active research area - riveting stuff.

[vertrefadmin]

Biology / Population genetics. The dissertation was on the density- and frequency-dependent dynamics of transposable element families in ciliated protozoa, with particular attention to mutation-selection balance.

(Google stalkers: if that doesn't get you to my doorstep - just ask me. )

 

PIC = Pilot in Command, no?

 

...If you think I'm an annoying troll, then: Don't Feed the Trolls.

They eventually go away. Even if they don't, if you ignore them long enough, they stop bothering you.

 

David Witherspoon,

 

Thank you for your background.

 

I am still puzzled why you chose my forum to spread your ideas. You obviously have your own board and I would like to keep this board professional. Again, the heated responses are justified due to the threat to livelihood. Is there something we can help you with or are you trying to get a reaction? An argument is a dual force: "Feeding the troll" but the Troll has free will or has your troll taken over you? I'm still unsure your intent.

 

If your ultimate goal is to educate, I am again puzzled why you chose an approach of shock rather than subtly. Perhaps it is your personality which is difficult to change. You appear to have passion behind your research. Your dedication to a goal is apparent in your PhD and your 100 lbs of information collected.

 

It seems as though your subject would be better dealt with in a local community forum. Please correct me but I would like to have this resolved so the helicopter community will continue to learn and share information on this site instead of using precious time and energy defending our life's work.

 

-Rey Madrid

[vertrefadmin]

...If you're curious about how the other side thinks, well - here we are.

Rip into it.

 

Reading over that article I think you are attacking the tail of your beast. We are the worker bees. We fly, enjoy it, and take the sniper hits from noise complainers, safety concerned citizens, and other pains from a host of other groups against us. You posting on this site is analgous to going to the Filipino Community Forums and saying they should all stop being Filipino.

 

It is in our blood to work in and around helicopters. You will not stop us by lobbying, or saying we are dangerous, or unsafe, or noisy. We are helicopter workers and you cannot do anything to change our hearts or our dedication to something we all love. We are a small group who take pride in our work and are very insulted when others who do not share our true love for flying post blasphemous comments to establish their view in our homes. We have your poiint. We understand you. We cannot do anything for you because we do not share your love and you do not share ours and we do not have the power to change what you wish to have changed.

 

I do not envy your upstream battle. You have dedication that is admirable. We also have dedication.

 

Please keep this in mind before your next post.

 

Thank you,

 

-Rey Madrid

[joker]

Well said Rey!

 

I concur that this thread is starting to lose its worthiness in this forum, if all it is, is an attempt to provoke a reaction.

 

If Mr Witherspoon thinks that he is going to get us all to drop our tools (or helicopters) right away and fight for his cause, then he is wrong. This is certainly how it looks. This has been the problem since the first post...there is no real focus of his intent on coming here. The bulk of his posts are self-flattering, bombarding us with tons (or should I say 100s of pounds) of material.

 

I for one won't even attempt to refute the information he has collated. Not becuase I think he is right, but because it is obvious that Mr. Witherspoon has had much time to collect and prepare his materials. I have not, and don't care to spend the time doing so.

 

On the other hand, if he is genuinely interested in learning from us, then I welcome him to the table. I will do what I can for our industry to try and help educate others.

 

Joker

 

Mr. Witherspoon, I have given you the benifit of the doubt so far where many others wouldn't and for longer. It is now down to you. Are you looking for information? Do you have genuine questions about helicopter operations? If you do, there are a great many experienced helicopter pilots here, who would be glad to help you. On the other hand, if you are looking to us in this forum to justify the actions of one company, or if you are simply looking for an fight, I will suggest that this thread gets closed straight away.

[flingwing206]

Well, I wish you luck on your journey, Dr W - everyone chooses their battle at one time or another. I don't think what you are trying to get done in the Wasatch is a bad thing, but I don't think WPG operating in the Wasatch is a bad thing either. (I actually think the million-dollar mansions are far worse than either).

 

In the end, in the USA, money talks. I suspect that eventually the financial might of the folks arrayed against WPG will bring on the changes you seek, although I suspect the folks holding the biggest purses are only concerned about eagles insofar as how they effect real-estate values (or one's image as an environmentalist). You seem to be honest in your passion, so good on you.

 

I suspect (as others have said) that you will find little support from VR forum members in your attacks on aviation. There are so many attacks from so many sides from people who have no idea what those little planes and helicopters actually get done for our society. For a pilot (especially a helicopter pilot) it all blurs into a constant background noise -

 

- no EMS helicopter operators allowed in Vermont (unless a politician's family member needs one, then shazam)

 

- homeowners complaining about helicopters flying overhead to fight fires (the fire is somewhere else, why do they have to fly here)

 

- complaints from real-estate developers when noise from helicopters in the traffic pattern intrudes on their sales pitch - they are selling townhouses just built under the traffic pattern of the second-busiest Class D airport in Minnesota...

 

Of course there are legitimate gripes as well. However, for a pilot, restrictions generally mean increased physical risk, reduced utility, and an ever-larger chance that we will run afoul of some new regulatory snare. So we're a defensive lot - we have to be.

 

There's enough to worry about already, I don't need to be getting a letter from the FAA when somebody with a really good set of binoculars decides to report a 1/2 mile flyby as "being buzzed", because they are p----d that a helicopter intruded on their time in the hot tub with a mimosa.

 

I can understand that you took interest in this thread, but remember you have walked into a pilot's bar and picked a fight with some folks who are venting. I don't necessarily agree with the stereotypes being thrown out here, but even I'm smart enough not to start debating the relative merits of motorcycle riding in a biker bar.

 

Fair skies!

[David Witherspoon]

I ain't that smart, obviously.

 

And I get the message, admin.

 

Though I disagree with your comparisons; I am not asking Filipinos to stop being Filipinos, nor pilots to stop piloting. Even if I disagreed with HAI's positions (and I don't know if I do), I would not try to prevent pilots from organizing in any way they chose.

 

In short: I think your defensiveness is misplaced. I do not have an axe to grind against pilots nor aviation in general. I do have a problem with the behavior of WPG; I've never thought of their actions as due to their pilots, but I guess the pilot in charge is, well, in charge. So, I've learned a bit.

 

Let me point out that the rough draft I posted read said nothing about pilots. (Local pilots were split on the merits of the FAA proposal; the formal letters that were written opposed it.) We took on the FAA, by the horns; I don't think that was the tail of the beast.

 

See flingwing's note as to why I showed up to begin with. The door was open; untruths were stated; I walked in and provided some correct information.

 

It's a little difficult to walk the line when some people are annoyed with the information and others are troubled that I might be seeking information. Not that I can complain, since I asked for it.

 

Joker - regarding information I might collect - it's the questions we don't know enough to ask that are the most important ones. It's the surprises that teach you the most. So, I guess I go looking for surprises.

 

flingwing - I'm aware of the blatantly inconsistent and self-serving attitudes out there. There's no shortage of it in SLC - one developer threatened to sue a local city so that he could build homes within the blast overpressure zone of an explosives factory. If those homes were built, guess what would happen to the factory ... SOC has yet to find itself on the same side of the table with a developer. The self-serving inconsistency affects the AirMed guys at the hospital - I studiously keep my mouth shut about it, but some residents of the $$$ hill right next to the hospital ... well, you know that story.

 

I'm not fond of McMansions, and their owners are not fond of SOC. Interestingly, SOC views itself as a tiny underfunded group taking arms against a sea of troubles; the money and power has always backed WPG. (Your supposition regarding those concerned about Eagles is incorrect.) Pilots apparently view themselves as similarly beset.

 

You'll be glad to hear General Aviation in SLC has suffered far fewer troubles than it has elsewhere; SLC decided to keep a municipal airport alive and allows lots of GA traffic out of SLCIA, much of which flies in a GA corridor where the East Downwind was proposed. While it's a bit annoying to listen to someone practice stalls at ~1500' over my house on a Saturday afternoon, the neighbor's dogs and lawnmower are worse, and it's just a reminder I should be hiking instead of sitting around the yard.

 

Clear skies to you!

[vertrefadmin]

I ain't that smart, obviously.

 

And I get the message, admin.

 

Though I disagree with your comparisons; I am not asking Filipinos to stop being Filipinos, nor pilots to stop piloting. Even if I disagreed with HAI's positions (and I don't know if I do), I would not try to prevent pilots from organizing in any way they chose.

 

In short: I think your defensiveness is misplaced. I do not have an axe to grind against pilots nor aviation in general. I do have a problem with the behavior of WPG; I've never thought of their actions as due to their pilots, but I guess the pilot in charge is, well, in charge. So, I've learned a bit.

 

Let me point out that the rough draft I posted read said nothing about pilots. (Local pilots were split on the merits of the FAA proposal; the formal letters that were written opposed it.) We took on the FAA, by the horns; I don't think that was the tail of the beast.

 

I see.

 

I believe you are mistaken that we are the FAA. You are posting on this forum which is not the FAA. The tail I refer to are the helicopter pilots and mechanics who post on this forum and utilize its resources and have been reading and responding to your posts. We are not WPG either. Your energy is misplaced if you think we are going to be able to make change for you here.

 

This website is for the professional exchange of information among pilots and mechanics. You have posted yourself that you are not referring to pilots nor are you a pilot or a mechanic.

 

Please post on a forum of the FAA or other such organization that can create the change you need. I am sorry but we cannot do that for you here.

 

I thank you for your visit and posts. Good luck in your endeavours.

 

-Rey Madrid

[Guest pokey]

I cant believe that this (obviously dictionary educated) <censored> is creating such a fuss.

 

hands Mr. PhD his toys & request that he go play in his own sandbox

 

oh BTW? take yer lawyer too

 

 

 

(sowwy- i didnt want to "feed the troll")

<<hands in my 3POINT 8 volt trolling motor

[Witch]

Doctor,

 

I think the best thing to do is whenever someone sees an event in which they're concerned, get the tail number and file it with the FAA. The investigation should reveal if the pilot was in error or not, and appropriate measures should be taken to aviod conflict in the future.

 

On a personal note, I had an uncle who was paraplegic. He bought an Ercoupe to fly. One day, he got stupid and flew under a bridge in Salem. Needless to say, someone got his tail number and reported it to the FAA. His license was pulled and was fined. He then parked the Ercoupe in his garage.

 

Now comes the fun part: he got stoned and drunk one Saturday afternoon and decided he was going flying. He got into the bird, started the engine, and went up and down the street several times before the cops stopped him. Good thing the wings were off at the time. He was jailed, fined, and had the plane confiscated.

 

From then on he stayed in bed and never went out. A few years later he was arrested for trying to kill a fly with a .38.

 

Later

[Guest rookie101]

On a personal note, I had an uncle who was paraplegic. He bought an Ercoupe to fly. One day, he got stupid and flew under a bridge in Salem. Needless to say, someone got his tail number and reported it to the FAA. His license was pulled and was fined. He then parked the Ercoupe in his garage.

 

Now comes the fun part: he got stoned and drunk one Saturday afternoon and decided he was going flying. He got into the bird, started the engine, and went up and down the street several times before the cops stopped him. Good thing the wings were off at the time. He was jailed, fined, and had the plane confiscated.

 

From then on he stayed in bed and never went out. A few years later he was arrested for trying to kill a fly with a .38.

 

Later

 

It's always an uncle!!! God, I hope I don't become one (and i probable will ), a pattern seems to develop in all of them i.e. the crazy uncle (as seen above ), the alcoholic uncle, and so on and so forth. Such a grim future....

[Witch]

Don't worry, as long as you keep yourself occupied, you'll do well.

 

Later