Question about integrity

[Guest 13snoopy]

Larson,

 

Perhaps I am misinformed, but in your husband's post he stated several things. First he stated that he was willing to "suck up the cost to get my aircraft" and "I had the potential to make $100 - $150 hours flying that aircraft" leading one to believe that he would have charged someone to fly it. If I misunderstood that, I am sorry, but that's what it sounds like.

 

Secondly, he continued to malign the CFI with questions of integrity AFTER that person had traveled to your office with money to pay for a flight that benefitted your company more than it benefitted her. The intent of the SFAR is to gain proficiency in the R-22, not just hours. For all the proficiency gained on a long, straight and level flight, she might just as well have pencilled in the time. Yet, you accepted the money. So apparently you do charge for students to ferry your aircraft.

 

Your husband was the one to bring up the integrity of another Army Officer, without that person present to defend themselves. I saw the injustice, especially AFTER you were paid, and I responded to it. No one else was. I often root for the underdog. It was not integrity on his part that made those statements.

 

I humbly appreciate your husband's service of his country and, coincidentally, appreciate your defense of him, but it does not excuse the earlier comments.

 

Lastly, Just because you are in business does not mean that the world owes you success. I don't know how many pilots you interviewed before choosing the CFI in question or your reasons for choosing her over the others, but your choice was made in the best interest of your business. Just like the market drives the prices you can charge, the market also drives the wage a pilot can command. In this case, a higher wage or better job was offered. Being a CFI in an R-22 is not a career-maker and you will always have difficulty retaining pilots. Diversification in your business may draw more candidates. The choice this CFI made was in her best interest. That's business. She offered to stay for 3 weeks until you found someone else AND she paid you money that I'm not sure you deserved, just to clear her name and perhaps her conscience, or perhaps because you bullied her into feeling that way. Yet, you still maligned her on this forum. Who has the integrity?

To the idiot also know as Inthegreen:

I have no idea who you are or what you stand for but you are as misguided as they come. And I'm starting off nice.

The CFI agreed to take a job. Then she didn't take it.

That's called a liar where I come from.

I have done real estate deals well into the 8 digit range and have heard folks agree "in good faith" to things that were not written at the time due to basic logistics, deadlines, etc. yet they kept their word because it was done in good faith. If you tell the linesman at the airport to put in 40 gallons of 100LL does it give you the right to not pay just because you didn't sign a contract beforehand? Of course not.

 

As I stated at the top, lots of people's "word" and 50 cents will buy you a Coke. Including the CFI's mentioned here. They all conveniently "justify" their liar ways. I have also learned through 16 years of real estae sales that the ones who do not keep their word usually turn out to be losers, so at least this thing happned before these folks invested anymore time/money in her. I laughed out loud when I read that her main reason for paying the money was that "her father talked her into it". So very par for the course.

 

You are exactly right about one thing though, the owners of the company should have made her sign a contract the minute everything was agreed to. But it sounds as if they had something in mind that you are not familar with: T-R-U-S-T.

Your lawyerish schpeel makes ME want to vomit. You are the exact person I would bet agrees to something then changes his/her mind and does so with the absurd justification that says: "Well, I didn't sign anything"...

 

AND ONE MORE THING:

Your most ridiculous comment (and you had several doozies) was the one directed at people who charge for ferry flights. What do you want next, flight philanthropy?????????????

According to you a new Robinson owner should say: "Let's see now, I have just spent 200 to 400K on a new Robbie so I think I'll start off by allowing a student to ferry fly it for FREE?????????????????????????????????"

*****************I bet you don't own a helicopter, do you?*******************************

Because if you did, you'd understand the extreme costs associated with keeping one running. How dare YOU have the audacity to admonish an aircraft owner over what they charge for. No one makes any student pilot pay for anything, including ferry flights. They do it because they want to. If you want to give away free ferry flights, go buy a new helicopter and have at it.

Sorry to break this to you, but the Democrats have not quite succeeded in establishing affirmative action and welfare checks for student pilots, although they are clearly a minority.

But I do have an idea for you, next heli you buy from Robinson, let's see YOU hand over the cyclic FOR FREE to a student just because you want to be a swell guy. I won't hold my breath...

You need to get into a position of signing the FRONT of the checks instead of the back of the checks awhile before you start telling an owner how to operate his company. Chew on that one and then go find us a few owners who agree to allow a stranger (and student at that) fly his/her new aircraft for free...

You're out of your freaking mind. And as I said earlier, I KNOW you don't own a helicopter. No way. No way.

[mrchuckf]

Larson,

 

Perhaps I am misinformed, but in your husband's post he stated several things. First he stated that he was willing to "suck up the cost to get my aircraft" and "I had the potential to make $100 - $150 hours flying that aircraft" leading one to believe that he would have charged someone to fly it. If I misunderstood that, I am sorry, but that's what it sounds like.

 

ITG

It does sound like you are misunderstanding a lot here and being rather judgmental. Yes he had the potential to make that money. But they did not. And as was stated they have never charged for ferrying aircraft, so what it seems to me is he is making a point.

 

Secondly, he continued to malign the CFI with questions of integrity AFTER that person had traveled to your office with money to pay for a flight that benefitted your company more than it benefitted her. The intent of the SFAR is to gain proficiency in the R-22, not just hours. For all the proficiency gained on a long, straight and level flight, she might just as well have pencilled in the time. Yet, you accepted the money. So apparently you do charge for students to ferry your aircraft.

 

They did not charge her for the ferry flight. They charged her for the 10 additional hours she flew after the flight to get her sign off. If she flew anywhere else she would have had to pay $1500 or more, so I dont think she got off bad at all in that deal. As for integrity. It is NOT integrity if someone else (father, husband wife) has to convince you to do the right thing. The integrity would have been for her to do it on her own free will, or better yet, live up to her promise.

 

Your husband was the one to bring up the integrity of another Army Officer, without that person present to defend themselves. I saw the injustice, especially AFTER you were paid, and I responded to it. No one else was. I often root for the underdog. It was not integrity on his part that made those statements.

 

See above. She did not show integrity in having to be coerced by her father to do the right thing.

 

I humbly appreciate your husband's service of his country and, coincidentally, appreciate your defense of him, but it does not excuse the earlier comments.

 

Lastly, Just because you are in business does not mean that the world owes you success. I don't know how many pilots you interviewed before choosing the CFI in question or your reasons for choosing her over the others, but your choice was made in the best interest of your business. Just like the market drives the prices you can charge, the market also drives the wage a pilot can command. In this case, a higher wage or better job was offered. Being a CFI in an R-22 is not a career-maker and you will always have difficulty retaining pilots. Diversification in your business may draw more candidates. The choice this CFI made was in her best interest. That's business. She offered to stay for 3 weeks until you found someone else AND she paid you money that I'm not sure you deserved, just to clear her name and perhaps her conscience, or perhaps because you bullied her into feeling that way. Yet, you still maligned her on this forum. Who has the integrity?

 

He didnt malign anyone. I have no idea who this person is. People that know her may be able to figure it out, but oh well. If she had the honor, and integrity to do the right thing none of this would have taken place. This person was given an opportunity many of us here dream of, and she sh*t all over it. After she did that she was given a very fair settlement and she sh*t on that too. Only after her father convinced her of the error of her ways did she do the right thing. When I was 6 years old and my dad made me take a pack of gum I stole from the store back, and apologize to the store manager, I learned I shouldnt steal and all was good. If I were to do the same thing now at 34 and had to have my father convince me to take it back, theres no excuse, and theres no honor in the apology. She will probably someday regret her actions and I hope she has learned from them. Lars, and Jim have every right to be upset, and they have every right to get other peoples opinions, just as you have every right to give them yours. However there is no defense for the pilot in question. She abused the trust of what seems to be good people and that is why you dont have people going above and beyond to help others as much nowadays. Do you think Lars, and Jim will take this risk again? I dont think so, and thats a shame. This pilot has possibly ruined a good thing for someone that may come after her. Just my .25 cents Now I must go dodge Afghan traffic. To Jim and Lars. I applaud you for your generosity to this person and I hope some other young CFI may be able to benefit in the same manner and actually appreciate it..

[500E]

IF you say it DO it,

After 40+ years in busienes nothing suprises me

 

PS. Still cant spell

[Inthegreen]

To 13Snoopy,

 

Well, where do I begin with that one? The CFI agreed to work for them. How long was her obligation? Was she obligated to work for them indefinitely because she agreed to work for them? She offered to work for three weeks, was that enough? Who decides? No one communicated their expectations for the term of service. Do you decide, because you are the angriest here? It was never specified. The Owners thought they had a really good deal and jumped on it. Jim stated that they had been having trouble attracting or keeping instructors. Perhaps that's market conditions, perhaps it's the company. There is not enough information to be sure. He also said that she stated she was looking to build her hours to get a better job, so there was expectation to move on.

 

You stated that you were in Real Estate. I don't guess you are all that acquainted with flight instruction. I have been in aviation and have been a flight instructor for close to 20 years. Although flight schools routinely charge students to ferry aircraft, it has always been unethical. The actual benefit to the student is negligible while the school makes money on the transfer. The practice continues because the flight school culture convinces the student that it is a worthwhile investment because it reduces the total hours they need to fly. In actuality, it just adds hours because it does not increase proficiency in complex maneuvers, instrument flying, full-down autorotations or etc. which the student will need in their advanced training. Long after the student is done they realize that they paid for a very expensive sight-seeing trip. That is my professional opinion. Other segments of the industry pay ferry pilots to move aircraft. Flight schools have an eager and captive market and they exploit it. Since you are an expert in Real Estate, I wouldn't expect you to know this about flight training.

 

By the way, I have honored every agreement I have ever made, verbal or written. What I don't do is attack people who are not present to defend themselves.

 

To mrchuckf:

 

If you re-read their posts I think you'll find she did not fly the additional ten hours. They stated that the additional hours were offered at a reduced rate of $150/hr, which she would fly when she returned. Since she never returned, not to work anyway, I concluded that the additional hours were not flown and therefore the charge was for the hours flown on the ferry flight. (Incidentally, Rainbow Air in Long Beach, CA offers R-22 for $146/hr club rate). Jim states his reasoning for charging for a ferry flight or recouping the flight costs, while Lars states they have never done it. Whether or not she was coerced by her father, she still made the trip and brought the money and they accepted it. Maybe she needed to think it over. Now if I misunderstood what was written and she flew 10 additional hours on site that she did not pay for, then yes, she is dead wrong. None of the posts seemed to say that though.

 

It would have been a painful decision, but yes, she should have taken the CFI job because that was what she accepted first. But still, who determines how long she should stay? In accepting the second job, I'm sure she had no belief that the job she had applied for months earlier would pan out. Which takes precedence?

 

 

When Lars first posted the first post for opinions it was with the impression that much was lost in damages. I think if you look closely, nothing was lost. Their aircraft was brought to them and $1,000 was paid. (I don't think it was stated if airfare and hotels was paid) They don't have a CFI, but they didn't have one before either. I think the main concern is the difficulty they are having in finding a CFI, which was evident in Lars last post. That condition was unchanged before and after the CFI did what she did. That is a market condition.

 

Ok everyone, flame away.

[joker]

Wow, this is getting fun!

 

Let's get this clear. Is the question of integrity about the CFI not taking the job, or not paying the money?

 

If the former, then I would say that it is not unreasonable for the CFI to be looking for another job. In this industry it happens all the time. If you could never seek other employment, just because you already have some then we would never move up in the world!

 

However, as she had accepted a job, then the least she could do was to give due notice. She did offer to do the teaching for 3 weeks...sounds like some notice. It's certainly not the way I would do things in her position, but it doesn't surprise me at all.

 

If the question is whether the CFI should have paid the money, then yes, I agree that she should have paid the money. There was a clear agreement about the deal prior to the flight.

 

Whether ferry flights should be charged or not, well that's debateble. Ferry flights are often charged by owners. I think its Fair play! Everyone likes the idea of cheep flight time. Owners like the idea of breaking even or even making a little while their aircraft is ferried. Everyone wins.

 

As for the issue of the verbal contract, well these are generally as binding as written ones - put it this way, a contract doesn't have to be written to be legally binding. They are harder to prove of course, but I think the flight school owners could have easily proved there was a verbal agreement in existance. What would be harder to prove was that there was a real loss. Would sueing have helped. Maybe, for piece of mind, but I think it would not have been worth it.

 

As for the face slapping in the last few posts, I think everyone is misunderstanding everyone here. InTheGreen was loose with a couple of comments (remember ITG, it's not what you say or write that matters, it's how its understood), and flight school owners a little more sensitive than they need to be.

 

HOwever, I will concur with INTHEGREEN, that things aren't always what they seem to be on the surface. To me, from the information presented, I cannot so easily jump to the conclusion that this CFI acted with such malice and nastiness as others did. The issues are complex - both sides have merrit. We were only presented a one-sided (and probably biased) account. To the Flight school owners - this is in no way a slur on yourselves, just an observation.

 

It seems that facts have been misinterpreted and distorted.

 

Even I am confused as to what people are arguing about!

 

I need to see more certain facts, before I will be so damning of someone (particularly in their absence).

 

Well, that was fun!

 

Joker

[Inthegreen]

Hi Joker,

 

Thanks for throttling down the conversation a bit. I responded as strongly as I did because I really object to someone impugning another's character in their absence and taking advantage of them to boot. I also have a very well calibrated aviation BS meter and I was getting a good reading.

 

I meant to make one other point about ferry flights before I let the whole thing go. This is a simple comparison. The company I work for now operates multi-engine medium turbines. Each is a multi-million dollar aircraft which costs between $500 and $1500 per hour to operate depending on unscheduled costs. The aircraft are rebuilt in Canada and the ferry time is approximately 15 hours round trip. Company pilots are used and paid two days overtime for each trip, plus lodging, per diem and airfare. The entire journey costs the company about $25,000. The rebuild costs upwards of $100,000. No one would ever suggest advertising for a student or young pilot to pay for the trip or forcing a new hire to pay as part of their training. Why? It's simply the cost of doing business.

 

A Robinson helicopter, with insurance, fuel, maintenance and even with the cost of rebuild figured in, costs just over $100 / hour to operate.

 

http://www.robinsonheli.com/pdf_files/betaiiopercosts.pdf

 

Can you see where I'm going with this? My opinion is that Flight Schools exploit their clients. It's never been viewed as exploitative because there are lines of wide-eyed people willing to do it, people who are following a dream and are easily swayed.

 

Granted, this is not as egregious as that other well-known and much-maligned flight school who charges all the money up-front, a life's-savings worth, and then finds creative ways to defraud their students out of it, and out of their training. It's nowhere on that scale.

 

It was a great discussion and I thank all who participated, even those who called me an idiot.

[arotrhd]

Inthegreen-

 

I'm not postiing to join in the a$$ kicking contest, nor are you an idiot. I am replyingbecause I wanted to respectfully submit a few thoughts for your, and others consideration;

 

"A Robinson helicopter, with insurance, fuel, maintenance and even with the cost of rebuild figured in, costs just over $100 / hour to operate.

 

http://www.robinsonheli.com/pdf_files/betaiiopercosts.pdf "

 

If you haven't done so already (the above qoute makes me think not), I would strongly suggest attending HAI's Operations Management course/ Advanced Operations Management course to get a better understanding of the operation intricacies and real life costs/profits/losses/markets/etc.

 

I didn't have an opportunity to visit the link, but does Robinson provide any information on the basis for the $100 figure? Do they provide info on payback schedule + amortised interest rates for standard pay-off terms? The $100.00 seems to be rather generalized statement - heck, I know several owners and operators who operate their (paid-off) -22s for far less than this figure. As some of these are in the flight training ops arena - with this HUGE advantage, why do they not promote substantially lower flight rates than other operators? Why do they charge similar rates and sometimes more?

 

Try to start and maintain operation @ only $100.00/hour for an R-22BII...get a whole fleet while you're at it. I'll be very happy to pay that wet rate any day along with several hundred others. Oh, and also provide some of the best instructors in the industry with the helo as well.

 

Please forgive me for slipping in any sarcasm.

 

alwyspoild: Sorry to understand you had to have this experience. I hope to read better experiences and a great deal of growth done safely.

 

-WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[alwyspoild]

Well everyone, this has been interesting. Sometimes we think we know a lot about people and how they act, but yet, when something like this happens, we are always suprised.

 

In summary we think we learned a few things:

 

1. Get a contract first.

2. Ferrying aircraft costs a lot of money, if a deal is made, get a contract first.

3. References don't always tell the truth. Get a contract first.

4. This is a great forum to get all sorts of feedback. Get a contract first. (Rey send us something and I'll have my lawyers call your lawyers, they can do lunch, charge us $175 per hour for their time and we can agree that its ok for everyone to post in this forum without charging $175 per hour of posting time and that if I do decide to post, I won't charge you for my time spent and you won't charge me for my time spent. But since this is all being typed in an open forum, we don't have to use the lawyers as long as we openly agree in this forum with all with witnesses. ITG, do you think this is binding enough?) I am still out a CFI. Get a contract first.

6. People are generally good, but get a contract first.

7. We can sleep at night knowing we aren't theives, but get a contract first.

8. The helicopter world is a small one. Get a contract first.

 

As for the comment about questioning the CFI's integrity or slapping faces; No one persons name with the exception of ours (first, last and both businesses) were mentioned. No one was directly tied in with these posts but us, by us. I don't need to hide behind anything, but I was not going to put anyone elses names out "there" and point fingers. It is unprofessional.

 

That's it for us on this topic. Please debate amongst yourselves. As the day goes on we are getting phone calls from people who had some contact since the incident and are learning some behind the scenes stuff.

 

We are going to take the high road and move on. Topic Closed.

 

Thanks for all the input, I knew we could count on you.

 

Jim and Larson