Does any1 else think this is insane?

[FLCFI]

I was recently fired from a flight inst position for refusing to fly in an r22 with a student that was 260lbs(estimated because my boss wouldnt let me weight him!!). I confronted my boss respectfully and showed him a weight and balance sheet that was waaaaaay out of cg(practically off the page). He took it from, doctored it for a few and brought it back. Magically now it was in cg and he told me to go fly with him. I refused and he told me "this is how we did it in the airlines (a high time 747 pilot) and once you get into the real world this is what will be expected of you". Ive talked to every prof heli pilot i know, some with 30 years exp and they all seem to disagree. My question is is this guy just another brainless airplane pilot or am i just an anal fool?(or is there some middle ground)

 

Thanks

[PhotoFlyer]

If you got fired for not flying a helicopter because it was in an unsafe condition, then consider yourself lucky to have lost the job. Any employer who would try to force an employee to fly an unsafe machine should not be in business. It sound like you did the right thing.

[Castaway]

what school was this? in florida? sounds like you made the right decision not to fly.

[FLCFI]

Not sure I should give out the schools name but it was not in FL

[cospey]

Why not give out the schools name? Good heck that is def. a school i won't be going to. That is rediculous! Your boss was probably related to the boy.... lol.

[dlo]

my opinion only,

 

first off, everyone knows their is the way to do things as you learned in school and then there is the way to do things in the real world. I am not experience with helicopters enough to really expert opinion. But we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have seen alot of anal stuff on this forum. If someone braggs about an approximate thing, pulling too many G's, carrying too many passengers, two pounds over the wieght limit ect..... everyone on the forum wants to flame the school and burn down the school, business ect......

 

all I am saying, is I believe sometimes people get too anal, wanting to point fingers way too fast. If someone is truley out of line, and does somthing way unsafe, then I can see the attitude, I know everyone will say we are just being safe and following all of the rules in the book, but if you break just one stupid rule in the book, then you are just as guilty as the next guy claiming to be pulling 5 g's with a 260 lbs student. How many of you guys have done something, " not by the book" in anything, then you will know what I mean. I am not saying, certain things are safe or unsafe, I am not blamming or defending the guy in this thread. I am just simply saying, their are three ways to do things, by the book with everything, not by the book at all, and somewhere in the middle.

 

I think if this boss fired you for refusing to fly a student that is estimated to be 260 lbs, which he knows is illegal, their were probably more issues surrounding you getting fired. maybe you pissed him off in other ways, maybe he never liked you or maybe business was slow. look at the whole picture before you chalk it up as just this one incident. then again, maybe the guy was just a crooked a**hole. ( the boss)

 

but flamming a guy and his flight school, because of speculated reason for termination, is in my opinion a little extreme. what about if you were the boss of a small flight school and you decided to fire your instructor, because, he was lazy, showed up late, had a poor attitude and business was slow. you fired him because he didn't listen to you.

 

then a week later the instructor comes online and flames the whole business and boss for getting fired over somthing really petty.. always loook at all of the surrounding reasons and angles, before taking such extreme action...

 

jp

 

ok guys, rip me a new one for my opinion, tell me how wrong I am and how your opinions are right...

[FLCFI]

Exactly why I did not mention the schools name. I have both a good work ethic and I always carry myself professionaly. I did not nor would I smere this mans reputation by outing his school on this forum. His practices will do that for me. I simply wanted input from my fellow flight instructors in the industry.

 

And btw he fired my replacement for the same thing

[brushfire21]

Sticking my nose out here...... but if you look at what the owner "did":

 

"weight and balance sheet that was waaaaaay out of cg(practically off the page). He took it from, doctored it for a few and brought it back"

Something doess't seem quite right here. Was the balance sheet truly out of whack? WHo cares, isn't there a max seat weight that an R22 can handle (240#?) I don't think he flamed the school, but to me was asking if the attitude of the owner in the following aspect was something normal and to be expected?:

 

"this is how we did it in the airlines (a high time 747 pilot) and once you get into the real world this is what will be expected of you"

 

Only based on those two things, and if those things happened the way FLCFI said thay did, then not all is well and it might have been a good thing he is not in the employ at that school. Even if FLCFI was a bad instructor (not saying he is or was), this is no reason to fire him based upon the paragraph mentioned obove.

 

I am sure I missed something in this whole thing, this is a dialogue isn't it!

[dlo]

flcfi,,

 

well, to answer you question, I truley believe that this is not to be expected in the professional helicoper school. ofcourse, the owner, should never alter the cg sheet to make it appear as if you are doing something legal. this is not to be expected by any professional. you never take a document and alter it so it benifits your business while going against the FAA. Just the simple fact that the seat limit is 240 lbs and that is it, no matter if the instructor weighs 80 lbs. the owner or boss is never supossed to break laws, alter ddocuments to fit his interests. Eventhough, the helicopter would probably fly fine with a 260 lbs guy along with a 200 lbs instructor, that is besides the point and he should not bust your balls for following the rules, if he wanted to fly the heli than fine, Im sure he would of been ok, but you do not have to break the rules and that is probably a good thing. on the other hand, if the heli's engine quit and you made a sucessfull auto, but the new student wanted to sue, of course you would lose without question, do to violating the seat limit. plus the seat rule is really only their to protect the person in the event of a crash, when the seats crush inward to brace your fall. the real load limit is like 480 or whatever, for the 22. but you should always follow your faa rules as a good rule.... the owner on the other hand might bend a few here and their , but that is his choice and up to his expertise. I know of a few high time pilots, who bend rules all of the time, doesnt make them right, doesn't make them safe, but they havent crashed yet, probably because they know by now which rules can be bent a little and which rules cannot be.

 

since the owner fired your replacement for the same thing, and you say there were no other issues between you too. If you did get along well, and he liked you and needed you, he would of never fired you for such a stupid issue of you acting responsibly. like you said, since he runs his business like this, and fires people at will, this crap will get around and he will not be there for long. karma comes back around too.

sounds like the guy was just a retarded jerk.

 

jp

[joker]

Dlo,

 

I agree with part of what you say; disagree with part too.

 

I agree that to jump to conclusions about an operation with only limited (one-sided) facts is not necessarily ideal.

 

Let's put things in perspective. We don't know for sure that this guy wasn't 240lbs. He was never weighed. We have FLCFI's estimation of the guys weight Vs his bosses. FLCFI, I don't distrust you at all. I agree that what you describe is deploreable. I should not want to work at a place such as that. Only you can be sure if this was exactly the sitaution as it happened or if there may have been other factors.

 

I disagree with DLO's views on taking a 'too-anal' approach to real world flying.

 

Although I may not get things exactly right all the time, I strive to be anal all the time. I try to go by the book. If the book is inadequate then it must be changed.

 

In this online forum, I will post anally. That is because I aim to role model good behaviour both in and out of the helicopter. In a flight training environment, I think it is doubly important to remain 'anality' and role model 'anality'.

 

In response to FLCFI's original question, let's just say this: In your career you will meet with good operations and bad operations. You will be under pressure all the time to meet this target or bend that protocol. So, yes I would say that what you are facing is not uncommon. How you deal with it is up to you. No one can make the decision for you. Personally, if I was fired for sticking to my guns, then I would be happy...that wouldn't be where I wanted to work.

 

Joker

[Goldy]

When I showed up at my fight school, the first thing they did was bring out the digital scale....I'm a big guy and weigh in right at 240...I would expect nothing less...consider yourself lucky you don't work there anymore.

[brushfire21]

Well said Joker (and good evening to you Goldy!)

[dlo]

Joker,

 

I totally agree with what you said, I believe some of the posts can get anal in some situations. but you did agree with me that you see the same things at times.

 

on the other hand, you are completely right for posting anal in an education based forum. It is always best to error on the side of safety. When posting to us newbie's, you must quote the book word for word and go by what the FAA suggests. So eventhough the posts get anal at times and I don't agree with some of them. Some of the people could be called hipocrites at times......... I really agree with you that you experiencewd pilots must post according to the book and safety.

 

I think most arguments on this site comes from which way is closest to the FAA book. you always see.. " look at section FAR 91" " it states this and that"" and this is the only way to do things safely because that is what the book says. I hate listening to the bickering about who is MORE right than the other guy, because the aviation bible says so. I mean lets be realistic for a minute, If you flew a person in an R22 that weighed 242 pounds, would your heli crash and die because the book said the wieght limit was 240???? no, probably not. However, if you got sued because of a freak accident with minimal damage, you would lose your ass, because you were over the wieght limit and you should have known better.

 

basically, I think that the book also errors on the side of safety and the true seat limit is probably a lot more than what is stated 240 lbs. I do not think the book is an exact science and if you fly with a passenger over 240 lbs you will die, you will however be breaking the rules. The FAA sets the most stringent and safest rules possible, they are supossed to be followed, they are not always followed and that could be problematic. THE faa rules also set a minimum for a private pilot license of forty hours< but does this mean that thirty nine hours that the pilot could have the experience and pass the check ride>>> jobs state that you must have five hundered hours for this job>>> but do they ever hire guys with four hundered ninty hours for the job<<<< yes>>> all i am saying is there are faa rules that are very extreme and people break them all of the time> they are not an exact science>>>>> how many of you guys break the rules set by your car manufactors on oil changes< tire pressures<< seat belts ect>>>>> what is safe to one person<<< can be very dangerous for another person<<<< then there are things that are really not safe at alll

[wheatbix]

FLCFI,

 

you did the right thing. Its your life, not your bosses.

 

Find somewhere else to work that treats you and safety with a little more respect.

 

[joker]

DLO (et Al.)

 

I'm glad we are all pretty much agreed here.

 

I would like to sum up in a number of statements what I see as the main lessons which arise out of this thread:

 

1. Analilty (my made up word) is subjective. What might be anal to one, may be completely unrealistic to another. Also there may be more than one way of doing things safely.

 

2. There are bad people in this world. We all have to make our own decisions whether we want to be one ourselves.

 

3. The regulations are simply written boundries of operation. That does not necessarily mean that they reflect perfection or the only way of doing things safely. However, they do represent commonly accepted (and legally accepted) practice, and are generally promoting safety. Thus following regulations and limitaitons is considered good practice.

 

4. In a training environment, we must be vigilant to promote good practice and thus adherence to those regulations and limitations. This is because new students do not have experience to know which ones are open to subjectivity or not. It is also because students will tend to reflect the attitude of their mentors, later in their career.

 

5. As pilots gain experience, we learn that in some cases safety can be acheived / maintained even when operating outside of the regulations or published limitations. We also learn to judge risk better, due to our increased experience and education.

 

6. All pilots bend rules at some point or another. However, pilots who have an appreciation for good practice (by good role modelling during their training - law of primaracy) will probably make safer decisions about which rules can be bent safely.

 

7. Continual bending of the rules could mean two things. A lack of appreciation of for good practice and / or that the rules are inadequate. If the former, then good luck to that pilot - his chances of crashing and snuffing it are high. If the latter, then the rules need to be reviewed.

 

8. But bending rules without experience can lead to disaster. And any disaster when rules have been bent (either related or not or experienced or not) will lead to heavy penalties. That's down to the pilots risk assessment.

 

9. Sadly, there will always be some pilots who wrongly judge the risk, bend the rules and pay the ultimate price. May they rest in peace. Even more sadly, there will always be pilots who never bend the rules, have loads of experience, and still end up paying that ultimate price. May they rest in peace too.

 

Is this a fair summation?

 

Joker

[dlo]

very fair,

 

well said joker,

 

I could not have said it better, exactly what I was trying to say, glad to see everyone didn't rip me a new one, everything you said, is very true and real, hands down.....

[brushfire21]

Joker, Very Fair indeed and I liked the summarizing that you gave, it helped me out. I have gathered that there is black and white, and then there is grey area. When to cross that line and enter the grey area is something that will happen someday, but be prepared before crossing?

[xolo_flight]

Aviation is not as unsafe as they make it out to be. Passenger numbers vs flights with incidents play around with the percentages. Its about managing the risks involved that bring you back. I would rather rely on smart decisions rather than rely on my skills as a pilot to bring back an aircraft safely. I think you did the right thing

 

keep punching holes in the sky

[Vaqueroaero]

I wouldn't worry too much about being fired over a safety issue. In actual fact good for you for standing up and not being bullied over it. It's no consolation, but someone like that is not worth working for in any case.

 

Yes rules get bent and broken. Yes we're all guilty of it. I remember flying with someone whose weight was pushing the envelope weight wise. One of the other safety issues that I encountered other than the weight was the way that it made it very difficult to operate the collective properly due to his size.

 

However there is one very important issue to remember here also. IF there is an accident/mishap/incident who carries the responsibility for that? Be under no illusion that the FAA will hammer you if they so choose to. One school where I worked was a 141 school and was due to have an FAA inspection. It was found out that the owner pressured an instructor to sign his name 3 times to ground school lessons that hadn't happened. The FAA found out about it and the end result was that the CFI lost every rating he had and had to reapply and do all his check rides again after 1 year. As far as I know he never did it, so that ended his flight career there and then.

 

So although rules get bent and broken, before doing so, very carefully weigh up the odds and ask yourself if it is really worth while doing so. It might work out, but then again the consequences could end up having very far reaching effects.

[Goldy]

BTW, someone mentioned being 260 with a 200 pound CFI would probably be ok. Let me just state as an R 22 pilot, that if you could get the thing off the ground, you be very unsafe, and probably unable to do a proper flare at the end of an auto due to your forward CG...just because it gets off the ground doesnt make it safe to fly, and the R22 is not the ship you want to experiment around with ! Enough said.

[Voluptuary5]

Good posts everyone! But to be honest I don't fully understand why FLCFI shouldn't name the school that cuts corners like this. Sure some folks may know who he/she is talking about but who is really being harmed and who is really being helped by doing this?!?! (it is obviously a small school). Think about it FLCFI! If you were truely harmed, and you did nothing wrong, what harm is there in letting the rest of us know who it was so we all don't make the same mistakes you had to experience. And I understand the integrity part but to what end? What is really the definition of integrity? Is protecting your former employer who is commiting such grave injustices integrity? Or is keeping others from making the same mistakes/protecting them, integrity? Think about it....Often the right decision is the hardest one to make...

 

-V5

[dlo]

Good posts everyone! But to be honest I don't fully understand why FLCFI shouldn't name the school that cuts corners like this. Sure some folks may know who he/she is talking about but who is really being harmed and who is really being helped by doing this?!?! (it is obviously a small school). Think about it FLCFI! If you were truely harmed, and you did nothing wrong, what harm is there in letting the rest of us know who it was so we all don't make the same mistakes you had to experience. And I understand the integrity part but to what end? What is really the definition of integrity? Is protecting your former employer who is commiting such grave injustices integrity? Or is keeping others from making the same mistakes/protecting them, integrity? Think about it....Often the right decision is the hardest one to make...

 

-V5

 

Flcfi should not name the school in question in my opinion because we all could name people that may have done us wrong at times, and then what would this accomplish. I mean would you want an old friend that you pissed off one time, airing out you dirty laundry all over a public international website. He was not ripped off, he was simply terminated because poor business choices. I mean you would not want to hear all of the bad things I could say about certain people in this industry along with others. like everyone knows, the helicopter industry is very small and you shouldn't just go around bad mouthing people for every little thing. on the other hand, ssh is know for truley doing people wrong, by thousands of dollars, now this needs to be let know.

 

but put it this way, what about if FLCFI decided to bad mouth his former employer publicly like this. giving the name, adress, phone number and everything else some people were asking for. so say flcfi does this. then a week later the employer, his boss, comes onto VR looking for a replacement, he thumbs through the forums and reads this crap... then he hops on the phone, calls all other local and non local flight schools he knows of and runs his mouth about flcfi, saying he was a peice of garbage, and he is a crappy worker and bla bla bla, ( not saying this is true at all about flcfi) then who is really harmed. possibly flcfi, it doesn't get anybody nowhere. already said it is a small helicopter school, probably on the verge of going out of business.

 

or lets say the employer decides to post his side of the story on this forum. once again saying flcfi is a terrrible worker and this and that. Then who do us viewers believe. both parties are bad mouthed over a termination issue, saftey issue, nobody really wins in these real life scenarios. world is small, be carfull which bridges you burn, you might need them twenty years later down the road...

 

that being said, I believe we should save the flamming to really serious issues, that need posting, people that were really harmed, suffered a huge loss, flcfi is probably better off going down the road to a less shady, bigger heli school anyway.. just my opinion and two cents.........jp