Just my two cents - TAKE IT!

[Bristol]

I just read thru that whole High Sierra Helicopters post regarding the troubles people are having regarding that. I don't know anything about Douglas Bawden (HH60pilot on this forum), but based on what I have read I feel like I should be able to voice my opinion (being a member of this online community). Moderators have closed the thread, but I feel like I want to be heard.

 

1. I understand that Doug is seeking employment. If so, then this says a lot to me about his financial situation. No one will get anything out of him. Forget about getting anything from him. He aparently "needs" a job to support himself.

 

2. He was a member of this forum(and still is I assume), so he has every chance to answer to the people that gave him their hard earned money. Maybe not openly here in the forum, but he owes a promise and effort to pay those people back however he can.

 

3. If he doesn't, he should be prosecuted for theft (in my opinion).

 

4. He has thought enougt to ask someone to defend him on this forum, but no courage to answer for what's going on?

 

I've heard a lot about SSH, HSH and a few other schools that have problems. I have no sympathy for people that steal from others, and IMHO that's exactly what it is, theft. SSH stole from studens. They stole money and dreams from their students, they should be made to pay. Sounds like Douglas Bawden did too.

Sound a bit harsh? I don't think so. All of us here are going after our dreams, most making sacrfices and enduring some form of related hardship. We don't need some scammer beating us down.

 

I may not know all the facts, and it may not be any of my business, but it sickens me to hear these things. People that intentionally defraud people and then don't make any kind of effort to "do the right thing" should be banned from the helicopter community. They are cowards.

No flying job! Nada! Go work at McDonalds loser!

 

I await my beating.

 

Paul

Edited December 16, 2006 by Bristol

[PhotoFlyer]

Doesn't sound like an opinion to me. Sounds like you want to be judge and jury, and simply punish the guy without the benefit of the entire story.

 

As for his response, the thread was closed before he was able to respond. He has contacted me, and a response will be posted shortly.

 

That thread was closed for a reason, and your disregard of that and malice toward HH60Pilot, and HSH, is disgusting. The thread served its purpose, it warned potential students of possible problems with the school, and further comments did nothing to further the thread. It turned into a sniping contest, which is incredibly unprofessional, and childish. I would expect better from a group of professionals, and students training to become professionals.

 

I may not know all the facts, and it may not be any of my business, but it sickens me to hear these things. People that intentionally defraud people and then don't make any kind of effort to "do the right thing" should be banned from the helicopter community. They are cowards.

No flying job! Nada! Go work at McDonald's loser!

 

I don't like seeing people stolen from any more than you, but, judging by this statement, (what else do I have?) perhaps you should be the one working at McDonald's. Of course, with that kind of attitude, McDonald's might not want you working for them.

 

--PF

[dlo]

Very, very well said Bristol,

 

I honestly believe, that any established flight school that lies, cheats and steals students money should be prosicuted to the fullest extent. I don't care if they didn't mean for it to happen or what. What happens if i go into a store a steal a CD... " but oh officer, it wasnt' supposed to be like this, I didn't do it, i was going to pay for it.""""" ok what is the difference between me stealing money from your wallet while you are not looking, or taking your money for services promised and then not holding that promise???"""" Want the answer NOTHING....

 

Some flight school owners need to learn a thing or two about business before opening one...... guess what, when you owe multiple people thousands of dollars, and you decide to walk off the face off the earth, or you are going through some hard times, your broke, your wife died, you got marrried..... Who cares what the example is..... bottom line, when you owe people money and decide to disapear for longer than two or three days,,, You CALL your customers and let them know why you cannot fullfill your promise at this time. YOu have to call you customers because they are always the key to your business.

 

And another thing that is not new, excuses are just like ( you know what ) everyone has one and they are not worth anything because there is no excuse for stupidity and cowardism. You face you fears and your unhappy customers and then you concentrate on your plan.

 

VERY bottom line............ Anyone that steals or rips off students of money to benefit themselves is a real scum bag and should be prosicuted for theft to the fullest extent. if it is over five hundered dollars it is a phelony, if you get three felonies, you strike out and never see daylight again.

 

I hate theives almost as much as child molestors.........

[Bristol]

Well then why don't you delete / close this thread as well. You're the moderator.

 

I have no sympathy for anyone that practices business that way. The only way anyone could redeem themselves is to return every cent of what they owed me so I could go on with my training. I don't apoligize for my opinion either.

 

Go ahead, do your worst. Use censorship.

 

Paul

Edited December 16, 2006 by Bristol

[PhotoFlyer]

Bristol,

 

If I had wanted to censor you, I would have removed your post and none would be the wiser. Instead, I posted MY opinion of YOUR opinion. And as you said, "...based on what I have read I feel like I should be able to voice my opinion (being a member of this online community)." Although I am a moderator, I too am a member of this community, and I too can voice my opinion. You took the post out of context, as it was MY opinion and NOT the views of verticalreference.com, the other moderators, or the administrator.

 

As for censorship: It is not my goal to censor you, nor any other member on this forum. What you view as censorship, is the moderating team trying to make the forum a friendly, mostly professional, place for all of our members. NOT a place where every post is answered with smart comments, insults, and no useful information is relayed. If THAT is the kind of forum you want to participate in, then I suggest you try justhelicopters.com original forum.

 

I am not going to close this thread. Since I am a participant I leave those decisions to other moderators.

 

--PF

[flingwing206]

IMHO, when something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. When sombody gets "sucked in" by what looks like a once-in-a-lifetime financial opportunity, it is because they: a) don't want to look too closely, don't know enough about what they are getting into, or c) are willing to take a risk. I know, I've been there, with c), when I paid for 10 hours of E280 dual training time at $235/hour. I ended up with 5.4 hours at $435/hour when the one-ship operation went off the radar.

 

Point being it's a lot easier to avoid the bad deals than it is to recover your money afterwards. In my case, there was no malice aforethought (or afterward), just a too-shakey financial situation - same result.

[svtcobra66]

IMHO, when something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. When sombody gets "sucked in" by what looks like a once-in-a-lifetime financial opportunity, it is because they: a) don't want to look too closely, don't know enough about what they are getting into, or c) are willing to take a risk. I know, I've been there, with c), when I paid for 10 hours of E280 dual training time at $235/hour. I ended up with 5.4 hours at $435/hour when the one-ship operation went off the radar.

 

Point being it's a lot easier to avoid the bad deals than it is to recover your money afterwards. In my case, there was no malice aforethought (or afterward), just a too-shakey financial situation - same result.

 

 

What I do not understand is why people are not paying for ten hour blocks. Don't most schools offer a 10 hour block rate? Yeah you might save even more if you pay the ENTIRE thing up front, but everyone obviously sees what can happen. You are still taking a risk with the ten hour block, but at least WORST CASE you lose 2300 bucks (or whatever your rate may be). Do some research, get a feel for the instructors, and beware of startups. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, but it is their responsibility to make sure they have adequate reserves to protect their customers. That's business 101. That being said, it still remains unclear what the High Sierra situation is, and like many I am also awaiting Doug's response.

[delorean]

You can knock block time all you want, but the fact is, that it's cheaper for a reason. It saves lots of time and shows a financial commitment from the student. Just because a school sells time by the "block", or credits you account with an extra 5%-10% when you put $X down, doesn't mean they're in financial turmoil and are trying to skip town with your money.

 

It was so much easier for me to sell a student 10 hrs ONCE, rather than sell 1 hr TEN times after each lesson. It saved me about 20-30 minutes total by the time I filled out the 10 CC slips, got a sig, wrote a reciept, or filling out a deposit slip, entering 10 reciepts into Quickbooks, then reconciling them all at the end of the month.

 

Also, students get pretty humbled in the first 10 hrs and may give-up. If they're finacially committed for 10 hrs, they'll get through those bad spots when it comes time for the next block fo time.

 

Where schools get in trouble with blocktime is when they spend that whole 10hr block as soon as it hits the bank. You have to set aside the direct operating cost of the helicopter (fuel, oil, maintenance, instructor rate, etc.) and spend it as the student flies. If you spend that whole, let's say $2000, and the student flies 1hr then doesn't come back for 2 months, you owe them 9 hrs @ the DOC which is probably around $100/hr. You better still have that $900 available to pay the fuel bill two months down the road. $900 isn't a lot of money, but do that with 20 students over the slow season and see what happens. The money that should be saved goes toward the hangar rent, insurance, etc. That's where I've seen schools get into trouble before.

 

All those headaches.......now I get paid to sleep. Starting a 48hr HEMES shift tonight and it's gonna rainy & foggy through the whole thing. God I love EMS.

 

Added.........................

 

And on the consumer side of it, yeah, do your research and if you do decide to buy block time, put it on a credit card. Most of them have some sort of "consumer protection plan" that you'll never have to pay for something if you get screwed. Just like with eBay / PayPal, it's the golden rule to always put any purchase, down payment, whatever on your credit card. Let them fight your battles for you. They're a lot meaner, have contracts with signatures, and have access to the vendor's bank account.

 

If they won't take credit cards, pay with a postal money order. It's a federal offense to defraud someone through the mail or with a postal MO. And those postal inspectors are just as nasty as the credit card companies. Now, proving fraud might be pretty tough in a true bankruptcy case, but the threat of sodomization in the federal pen' for the next 10 yrs is made and it's now up to them to defend themselves from that future......so you might get your money before those 20 other guys who are owed the same amount.

[svtcobra66]

I am all for ten hour blocks, I'm saying ten hour blocks should be the maximum you prepay. Guys handing 60k over up front are crazy IMHO.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

I am removing my post because it has been edited by a moderator and is no longer my statement. So much for freedom of speech.

 

-Seth

[rollthbns]

One of the things I have been told over and over since beginning training recently, is that the helicopter industry is small, and you have to be very careful about what you do from day one.

 

I would assume that rule applies to all involved, not just us rookies. That does not excuse fraudulent behavior on the part of anyone of course, and things must eventually be made right somehow. Good luck to anyone affected by these situations, dont let circumstances or other people steal your dreams!

 

Oh, one more thing. Pay as you go, is the best policy in my opinion.