Unique oppurtunity

[More_Cowbell]

I have been reading this forum now for several months in my, up till now, unrealistic dream of flying helicopters for a living. I assume I'm like most, in that I have kicked this idea around in my head since I was a kid. I'm 34 now, and REALLY looking for a career change. The costs involved to even get your foot in the door flying helicopters almost had me dismissing the idea completely. Until I lucked across a once in a lifetime opportunity.

 

I am a blood member of an Indian tribe (although honestly, just 1/16th). About a month ago, my cousin was telling me how he had applied for and received money thru a program funded and managed by the tribe called Career development to pay for him to go thru the firefighting academy and paramedic training. Obviously, bells went off in my head. To make a long story short ... I contacted the director of the program, set up a meeting with him, explained what I wanted to do, the costs involved, etc.

 

I heard back from him again this morning. The only remaining issue is not if they will pay for my training, but whether they will pay for all or most. The director of the program completely understands it's pretty much an issue of all the way thru CFII or it's just a very, very, very expensive PPL (luckily, he is a fixed wing private pilot and is better versed in all the ratings than I am). He has not given me a specific dollar amount that will be made available to me. But, every indication at this point is that it will be greater than 50%, plus a living allowance during the training period. I will have an exact dollar amount towards the end of December when they will know exactly how much surplus the program will end the year with.

 

The program itself is almost shamefully underutilized and overcapitalized. They have more money than they have been able to give away. So anybody else out there ... if you have a CDIB and a tribal membership, check with your tribe. They've got to spend all that casino money somewhere!

 

On to my question ...

 

In a situation like this, where money is no longer the issue, where should I go for the absolute best quality training? I have looked into just about everybody that offers helicopter training that I have run across on here. The top contender to me is definitely Bristow. But, I also like the idea of a smaller operation with better one on one interaction. Along those lines Tomlinson looks to be a front runner. I live in North Texas, so I am going to have to move anyway. I might as well move to wherever I am going to get the best training.

 

Ultimately, I want to fly EMS. I fully expect to do my time building as a CFI and then off to the Gulf for a few years and pay my dues to get there. However, I do have a law enforcement background. The tribe that will be funding my training has paid for the transfer and refurbishment of a couple of surplus UH-1Hs for local Sheriff's Departments within the tribal boundaries. These are small (10-15 man) rural departments, mostly without very much if any existing aviation experience. It was mentioned to me that I may be able to "work off" some of the grant money by assisting these departments after I complete my training. This is something that I believe the Director of the program is using to try to justify the tribe paying for 100% of my training. I actually reserved at one of those very Sheriff's Departments in question after I left police work full time, so that may turn out to be a very real arrangement. If it does ... how bad could it possibly be to HAVE to fly SAR missions and build UH-1 time!

 

Anyway, that little possibility has me leaning towards Tomlinson. Because they do offer the LE flight training that could be beneficial. I would like to make a decision here within the next couple of weeks, and be able to tell them this is where I need to go. Any advice or input anyone here may have would definitely be appreciated.

[clay]

Sounds like an awesome opportunity! come on down to south texas and train here in the houston area. there are a few different schools in the area, and as far as who offers the "best" training? there is no such thing. A helicopter is a helicopter, aerodynamics is aerodynamics, emergency procedures are emergency procedures (EXCEPT in a robbie, flying them IS an emergency procedure ), FARS are FARS. If school A says they have better training that school B, then they just want that check. As far as schools, the only factors you should really have to consider aside from were you want to live is cost, safety record, types of A/C you want to train in, and weather or not you have a good working relationship with an instructor. you should GO to some schools, meet the personel, see the facility, discuss training in person, find out about prices, etc. etc. . . anyone can build a pretty website and sound really good on the phone. but congrats on the opportunity! sounds like a hell of a deal. use it wisely!

 

clay

[Jeff]

Ditto what clay said.

 

I think the important things are instructor availability and aircraft availabilty. You might get really good training from an operation with one instructor and one helicopter (like me), but if the instructor is busy or the helicopter is down for its 100-hour or something, you will be grounded. I have actually referred people to other schools if I thought I couldn't meet their training needs.

 

Watch out! for the schools that will do or say anything to get your business. They usually tend to promise big and deliver small. Click here for a good article on choosing a flight school. Congratulations and good luck!

 

Jeff

[helonorth]

Tomlinson is a good place. Good instructors , helicopters, maintanance and management. Owner

has deep pockets, so nothing slides. All kinds of different airspace and approaches within

15 minutes. Good choice, I say.

[ArmamentDawg]

I believe there is a disparity in the quality of training from school to school. Large acadamies like Bristow, tend to have low time instructors who are just building time in waiting for another job. I'm training with a high time (20 years including fixed wing atp, a&p inspector and even a few years of atc experience) guy who flies and trains EMS. He's got his own R44 IFR trainer, and he teaches primairy commercial students like me on the side. I know I'm getting more from him than even the most dedicated low time instructor could offer.

 

Would you rather learn IFR from a guy who can really tell you what it's like to break out at minimums, or someone who's never even flown a real IFR certified ship? Would you rather learn regs from a guy who has run his own 135 operation, or a 22 year old kid who's just enfatuated with flying and thinks a $300,000 ship is a toy? Most important, would you rather learn from someone who's actually reached the point in his life where he wants to mentor new pilots, or someone who's instructing just because they have to build time somehow?

 

Your major concern with your funding should be finding a truly experienced instructor to spend it on.

[More_Cowbell]

Clay,

Do you have a couple of names for the schools down around Houston that you reccomend? Preferebly schools that use Schweizers? I've ridden in a Robbie once .... and once was enough. Whatever school I choose will fly 300s. I have culled a few that are geographicly closer for that reason alone. About the only one that has really peaked my interest here in Texas has been Brazos down around Waco. Although, I have contacted them twice and not received any replies or information since ... something that tells me to move on.

 

I get what you're saying about all helicopters being the same, and I assume all training being geared towards FAA flight checks eventually. What makes me seek out "the best" training though, is that all the training I have ever done (be it military, law enforcement, or related to my current career) has ranged from really good to really piss poor. I have attended some training that I felt was truly great and some that I still feel wasn't worth the paper they print the little certificates on. I just don't want to wind up selecting someplace and being stuck with it, when I will know deep down I could have gotten more out of somewhere else.

 

I have no doubt that you know more about this than I do (my aviation career so far amounts to about 20 hours in a 172 ten years ago and a couple of hours riding around in a 300 and a R22), and I am all ears to experience. My gut feeling tells me that helicopter flight training wouldnt be much different though. It stands to reason that some places trully are better than other places in what they can teach you and how they teach it. I am here trying to get past the great sales pitches on the websites and learn from the experience of those of yall that have done it.

 

Jeff,

Your opinion is what has me going back and forth in favor of just going to Bristow. If this pans out into the best case scenario with 100% funding (the example of the costs involved I initially used when applying were actually Bristow's $50,000 example anyway), attending flight school will pretty much be my full time job. Even knowing some of the bad aspects of the large pilot mills, I do need someplace that can assure me full time status and allow me as much training and flight time as I can handle. I would love to hear from any former students of places like Tomlinson, Pelican, Marpat, etc and hear how available aircraft were for full time students that trained every day.

 

helonorth,

Did you get your training at Tomlinson? Your comments pretty much reinforce my impression of them so far. I am still awaiting the complete info packet from them that I ordered last week. Hopefully I will be able to go over it closer and at least speak to them on the phone before the end of the week. I did notice that they are a smaller operation (at least compared to Bristow ... but I think that goes for most), which brings up the question of full time status and the availability of instructors and aircraft.

 

ArmamentDawg,

In my opinion, it sounds like you have the ideal situation. I would absolutely love stepping into a situation like that. I have no doubt that the quality of instruction is much deeper than that available from the 200 hour new hire CFI. With a guy like that though, would it be realistic to expect them to be able to provide full time status?

[clay]

SURE!

You've got 3 choices here in Houston if you want to avoid robbie's.

 

First off, you have the school i trained at, Salaika aviation. it is a little south of houston (about 40 minutes) and they use the Enstrom helicopters to train in. If you have never seen an Enstrom, they are a 3 bladed, fully articulated rotor system, more of a "helicopter" than the 300's i think. the blade chord on line on the Enstrom is probably double that of the 300 (not sure the exact number, i can find out if you are interested) im not too sure of the rotor diameter, but I do know it is considerably larger than the 300. The reason I know this is because Brazos helicopters sends they're students down to Salaika Aviation for checkrides because Tim (the owner) is also a DPE. It is on a private airport, which means no waiting for the fixed wingers or other traffic to get outta the way so you can train. Why did I mention the rotor diameter and chord line to you? well, as a new student, you may or may not catch the significance, but when you start, you will! the bigger, wider, longer rotor system stores in energy much better than a smaller rotor system does, therefore an autorotation is almost a non-event in the Enstrom. I mentioned Tim being a DPE, and Brazos sending there students to Tim for checkrides for one reason, it WILL save you time and money. When you complete your training, hours, ground school, etc and you walk out of the classroom building, you can walk into Tims office; tell him your ready for the checkride; He will make sure you have all the requirments; Then your ready to do the ride ASAP. Im not 100% sure, but I assume Brazo's students have to pay for the flight time to southeast Texas to do the checkride (which is probably 2+ hours x $240/hr) As far as instructor experience, Tim has MANY MANY MANY thousands of hours, flew in Vietnam, Flew offshore, Flew Here, Flew there, well... just flew a sh*t load of different helicopters. and Gary has over 3500 hrs in the Enstrom helicopter... OK, theres my plug for Salaika Aviation. . . www.salaikaaviation.com

and just one more thing about the Enstrom, check the safety records compared to other trainers

 

Second Choice, would be Ascent Aviation in LaPorte Tx, does training in the Hiller. Very clean helicopter, really nice guy named Mike owns it. He flys MD-11's to Africa every few days, but has another guy who does CFI work for him that has multiple 1,000's of hours in helicopters as well. I cant go into as much detail about this school because I only have went out a few times and visited, seen the helicopter and just hung around a little. The airport they work out of is a fairly busy small airport (no tower). The airport identifier is T41 if you happen to want to look up online. www.ascentaviation.net

 

Third Choice, would be Gulf coast helicopters. . . I have basically NO information on this school, except that it flys out of Pearland regional airport here south of Houston, They have a brand new 300, and also a 206b. It is ran by a guy named Ed Acuna I believe. I tried to do a little digging to find the website, with no avail! I know they have a website though, and I have seen it but cant seem to find it. Maybe if you called Pearland airport they can get you a contact number..

Found a number.. try it out... 281-485-7345

 

If you have any questions, let me know! I'd be more than happy to help out if i can

 

Clay

Edited November 27, 2007 by clay

[helonorth]

I believe there is a disparity in the quality of training from school to school. Large acadamies like Bristow, tend to have low time instructors who are just building time in waiting for another job. I'm training with a high time (20 years including fixed wing atp, a&p inspector and even a few years of atc experience) guy who flies and trains EMS. He's got his own R44 IFR trainer, and he teaches primairy commercial students like me on the side. I know I'm getting more from him than even the most dedicated low time instructor could offer.

 

Would you rather learn IFR from a guy who can really tell you what it's like to break out at minimums, or someone who's never even flown a real IFR certified ship? Would you rather learn regs from a guy who has run his own 135 operation, or a 22 year old kid who's just enfatuated with flying and thinks a $300,000 ship is a toy? Most important, would you rather learn from someone who's actually reached the point in his life where he wants to mentor new pilots, or someone who's instructing just because they have to build time somehow?

 

Your major concern with your funding should be finding a truly experienced instructor to spend it on.

 

Your post is full of generalizations and exagerations. You don't need a 20 year veteran to get

excellent instruction. Someone who's actually broken out of the clouds at minimums? Who cares?

Do you actually believe 135 regs are something that cannot be explained comprehesively unless

they have run that sort of operation? Most, if not all the instructors I have worked with and

received training from, were professionals. 22 year old kids that are infatuated with flying and

think the helicopter is a toy don't make it through their private. You do not "know" you are

getting such superior instruction, because you are a long way from really knowing if it really was.

I'm guessing you do have a good instructor. Is everyone else that doesn't have a 20 year vet

available getting sub-par training? Most instructors are building time because the pay is awful

and the benefits nonexistant. Most do an excellent job, though.

[jehh]

If you're in North Texas, come up to Dallas... There are two schools to train in the 300 here, Summit Helicopters and Long Horn Helicopters both have multiple Schweizers...

 

http://www.flysummit.com/

 

http://www.longhornhelicopters.com/

 

Both are good schools with good CFIs...

[Wally]

Your post is full of generalizations and exagerations. You don't need a 20 year veteran to get

excellent instruction. Someone who's actually broken out of the clouds at minimums? Who cares?

Do you actually believe 135 regs are something that cannot be explained comprehesively unless

they have run that sort of operation? Most, if not all the instructors I have worked with and

received training from, were professionals. 22 year old kids that are infatuated with flying and

think the helicopter is a toy don't make it through their private. You do not "know" you are

getting such superior instruction, because you are a long way from really knowing if it really was.

I'm guessing you do have a good instructor. Is everyone else that doesn't have a 20 year vet

available getting sub-par training? Most instructors are building time because the pay is awful

and the benefits nonexistant. Most do an excellent job, though.

 

I'll tell you who cares- I do. For professional level training, you need somebody who's walked the walk. That said, I've trained with some excellent low time CFIs. This is a gray area, full of opinions, so here's mine- Flying is a performance art, and teaching is especially so. A knowledgeable, energetic, empathetic low-timer with good communication skills is better than a burnt-out, bored vet. However, the best of all possible options is somebody who has seen a few things and learned from it. When the newly-minted CFI hits a wall with a student, he goes (or should go) to the chief instructor. There's a reason for that: the depth of knowledge experience brings.

For Private level training, any competent professional should be adequate. But- how you train is how you'll fly, which to me means that it's important to get the best training you can from the get-go. That could be a good low timer- as I said I've flown with some really sharp new guys. But if your goal is flying professionally, you'll want to fly and learn from as much experience as possible. It's one thing to know theory, it's another level of understanding to be able to demonstrate and teach theory. Western Helicopters? Western Operations?- the folks in Rialto? who do the specialized mountain/autorotation training for LE- comes to mind immediately as an example of that level of instruction. Somebody who when you ask "what if?", comes back with "I'll show you" and can do it, instead of just explaining theory and extrapolating from that.

 

 

"More_cowbell", you've got a good attitude, and I wish you well. I don't envy having to make the choice you do. If it's possible, I always liked visiting before I made comparable decisions. Walking the place, seeing it first hand and eye-to-eye makes me feel better. If nothing else, you'll have a better feel for potential personality issues- they do happen in teaching situations.

 

Good luck. You'll like EMS when you get there. At least, I do. I don't fly enough, though...

Edited November 28, 2007 by Wally

[clay]

i think wally is one of those guys that if you dont agree with him, your wrong.. training is training Wally, if I train with a 10,000 hr pilot, your saying ill fly better? i dont think so.. its up to the student. if he goes and catches on quick, he may , just MAY fly better than that 10,000 hr pilot. although more than likely not, its a posibility. who cares who trains you. there only goal is to keep you safe, and get you to the commercial/CFI level.. thats when you really learn. before that, all your learning is book work. as far as instrument training, who cares if someone has flown REAL IFR, or only under the hood. he's there to teach you navigation (under the hood) and how to utilize your instruments SAFELY, and of course some book work. does it matter that he's flown real IFR when we are in the pattern shooting ILS approaches? i dont think so. . training is training. you LEARN once you've gotten your commercial/CFI and get into teaching and flying without someone holding your hand.

[ascott20]

Not to try and get back on subject or anything, but I highly recommend Tomlinson Aviation. I got through my Commercial with them a few years ago, and when I get back from Iraq, I'll hit 'em up for my CFI. They have a great set-up and aircraft there as well as training program, but still have that small school feel.

 

As for Bristow Academy (Helicopter Adventures), it is a good school too, but have a factory-type program. I worked with some of their pilots in the past and don't really have anything negative to say about them. The only thing I noticed is that they were all hesitant in doing anything that might be deemed "outside the box" because they were used to SOPs with limited flight experience and a strict program. That is typical though of all standardized training programs and they all eventually got comfortable in the industry.

[clay]

Not to try and get back on subject or anything

 

 

good point

[big_z]

Not to try and get back on subject or anything, but I highly recommend Tomlinson Aviation. I got through my Commercial with them a few years ago, and when I get back from Iraq, I'll hit 'em up for my CFI. They have a great set-up and aircraft there as well as training program, but still have that small school feel.

 

As for Bristow Academy (Helicopter Adventures), it is a good school too, but have a factory-type program. I worked with some of their pilots in the past and don't really have anything negative to say about them. The only thing I noticed is that they were all hesitant in doing anything that might be deemed "outside the box" because they were used to SOPs with limited flight experience and a strict program. That is typical though of all standardized training programs and they all eventually got comfortable in the industry.

 

Are standardized training programs bad at all? It goes to reason that a program gets standardized because it works (in general). My experience is with standardized training programs, and I know people who have trained with smaller operators, but the training, from what I gather, is very similar.

 

Off topic: Iraq? What branch of the military are you in? I was Navy.

[aclark79]

I'm not going to plug the school I work for, if you search around you'll find out plenty about us and what we offer. What I will tell you is this: go to the schools your looking at, talk to students away from instructors. Talk to the Chief Instructor, s/he should have no problem making time for you (in a reasonable time frame that is). Talk to the instructors away from the Chief... talk to the dispatchers (if they are large enough). How are the employees, are they disgruntled? Do not assume that a school with a high instructor turn over is a poor school.

 

Do they have a sim? (you want to go EMS, you'll need an IFR) Do they have a good IFR trainer? Who does thier maint and what is their safety and incident record. Do they keep track of thier own accidents/incidents... are they willing to talk about thier own mistakes and what they have learned from them. If not.... you get the idea.

 

I would not give up on the 22. I learned initially in the 300 and the rest in the 22, it is an excellent trainer with an excellent safety record. I'm not saying you have to fly it, but do not pick the school because of the 300, pick the school because its the best fit for you.

[More_Cowbell]

I'll tell you who cares- I do. For professional level training, you need somebody who's walked the walk. That said, I've trained with some excellent low time CFIs. This is a gray area, full of opinions, so here's mine- Flying is a performance art, and teaching is especially so. A knowledgeable, energetic, empathetic low-timer with good communication skills is better than a burnt-out, bored vet. However, the best of all possible options is somebody who has seen a few things and learned from it. When the newly-minted CFI hits a wall with a student, he goes (or should go) to the chief instructor. There's a reason for that: the depth of knowledge experience brings.

For Private level training, any competent professional should be adequate. But- how you train is how you'll fly, which to me means that it's important to get the best training you can from the get-go. That could be a good low timer- as I said I've flown with some really sharp new guys. But if your goal is flying professionally, you'll want to fly and learn from as much experience as possible. It's one thing to know theory, it's another level of understanding to be able to demonstrate and teach theory. Western Helicopters? Western Operations?- the folks in Rialto? who do the specialized mountain/autorotation training for LE- comes to mind immediately as an example of that level of instruction. Somebody who when you ask "what if?", comes back with "I'll show you" and can do it, instead of just explaining theory and extrapolating from that.

"More_cowbell", you've got a good attitude, and I wish you well. I don't envy having to make the choice you do. If it's possible, I always liked visiting before I made comparable decisions. Walking the place, seeing it first hand and eye-to-eye makes me feel better. If nothing else, you'll have a better feel for potential personality issues- they do happen in teaching situations.

 

Good luck. You'll like EMS when you get there. At least, I do. I don't fly enough, though...

 

 

First of all, thanks for the encouragement. It does seem a little daunting at the moment, but thanks to this thread and my independent research I feel I should be able to make at least a halfway informed decision pretty soon. I have to say that I find myself agreeing with your point of view for the most part. I want the absolute best training to build upon.

 

Who are the folks in Rialto that you mentioned as an example of professional level training? Are they the only one out of the three that do the specialized mountain/autorotation training for LE, or do all three that you mentioned?

 

If you don't mind me asking, since you've succeeded in the very area that insterests me most, What training and career path got you to where you are now? And, how many hours a month do you fly on average?

[More_Cowbell]

If you're in North Texas, come up to Dallas... There are two schools to train in the 300 here, Summit Helicopters and Long Horn Helicopters both have multiple Schweizers...

 

http://www.flysummit.com/

 

http://www.longhornhelicopters.com/

 

Both are good schools with good CFIs...

 

Thanks for mentioning Longhorn Helicopters. I was already familiar with Summit down in Addison, but had some questions that they either couldnt answer, or didnt have the time.

 

I am going to contact Longhorn and see if I can run over there this weekend. I am north of Mckinney, so them being over in Denton would be pretty convenient. Do you have any direct experiance with them?

[More_Cowbell]

Not to try and get back on subject or anything, but I highly recommend Tomlinson Aviation. I got through my Commercial with them a few years ago, and when I get back from Iraq, I'll hit 'em up for my CFI. They have a great set-up and aircraft there as well as training program, but still have that small school feel.

 

As for Bristow Academy (Helicopter Adventures), it is a good school too, but have a factory-type program. I worked with some of their pilots in the past and don't really have anything negative to say about them. The only thing I noticed is that they were all hesitant in doing anything that might be deemed "outside the box" because they were used to SOPs with limited flight experience and a strict program. That is typical though of all standardized training programs and they all eventually got comfortable in the industry.

 

You've pretty much reinforced my initial gut feelings on the differences of the two. During your time at Tomlinson, How often did you train? Would it be difficult to schedule enough time to consider it as full time? How difficult do you think it will be to shoot for a job there after you get your CFI?

 

I keep going back and forth between Bristow and an operation like Tomlinson. Part of me says to just go to Bristow and get the ratings over and done with, then leave it up to Air Logistics (or whoever) to actually train me to a professional level. The part that keeps me searching for more information says to find a smaller school, and approach it almost like you would an internship though.

[More_Cowbell]

SURE!

You've got 3 choices here in Houston if you want to avoid robbie's.

 

First off, you have the school i trained at, Salaika aviation. it is a little south of houston (about 40 minutes) and they use the Enstrom helicopters to train in. If you have never seen an Enstrom, they are a 3 bladed, fully articulated rotor system, more of a "helicopter" than the 300's i think. the blade chord on line on the Enstrom is probably double that of the 300 (not sure the exact number, i can find out if you are interested) im not too sure of the rotor diameter, but I do know it is considerably larger than the 300. The reason I know this is because Brazos helicopters sends they're students down to Salaika Aviation for checkrides because Tim (the owner) is also a DPE. It is on a private airport, which means no waiting for the fixed wingers or other traffic to get outta the way so you can train. Why did I mention the rotor diameter and chord line to you? well, as a new student, you may or may not catch the significance, but when you start, you will! the bigger, wider, longer rotor system stores in energy much better than a smaller rotor system does, therefore an autorotation is almost a non-event in the Enstrom. I mentioned Tim being a DPE, and Brazos sending there students to Tim for checkrides for one reason, it WILL save you time and money. When you complete your training, hours, ground school, etc and you walk out of the classroom building, you can walk into Tims office; tell him your ready for the checkride; He will make sure you have all the requirments; Then your ready to do the ride ASAP. Im not 100% sure, but I assume Brazo's students have to pay for the flight time to southeast Texas to do the checkride (which is probably 2+ hours x $240/hr) As far as instructor experience, Tim has MANY MANY MANY thousands of hours, flew in Vietnam, Flew offshore, Flew Here, Flew there, well... just flew a sh*t load of different helicopters. and Gary has over 3500 hrs in the Enstrom helicopter... OK, theres my plug for Salaika Aviation. . . www.salaikaaviation.com

and just one more thing about the Enstrom, check the safety records compared to other trainers

 

Second Choice, would be Ascent Aviation in LaPorte Tx, does training in the Hiller. Very clean helicopter, really nice guy named Mike owns it. He flys MD-11's to Africa every few days, but has another guy who does CFI work for him that has multiple 1,000's of hours in helicopters as well. I cant go into as much detail about this school because I only have went out a few times and visited, seen the helicopter and just hung around a little. The airport they work out of is a fairly busy small airport (no tower). The airport identifier is T41 if you happen to want to look up online. www.ascentaviation.net

 

Third Choice, would be Gulf coast helicopters. . . I have basically NO information on this school, except that it flys out of Pearland regional airport here south of Houston, They have a brand new 300, and also a 206b. It is ran by a guy named Ed Acuna I believe. I tried to do a little digging to find the website, with no avail! I know they have a website though, and I have seen it but cant seem to find it. Maybe if you called Pearland airport they can get you a contact number..

Found a number.. try it out... 281-485-7345

 

If you have any questions, let me know! I'd be more than happy to help out if i can

 

Clay

 

Thanks for the tips. Salaika actually sounds like a pretty good candidate. I have read good things about the Enstroms before. Those that fly them seem to really love them. My question is where do you go from there? Enstroms don't seem to be all that common. Was finding a CFI job after you left there more difficult than if you had trained in 300s? Less difficult because there's not as many Enstrom pilots floating around?

[More_Cowbell]

I'm not going to plug the school I work for, if you search around you'll find out plenty about us and what we offer. What I will tell you is this: go to the schools your looking at, talk to students away from instructors. Talk to the Chief Instructor, s/he should have no problem making time for you (in a reasonable time frame that is). Talk to the instructors away from the Chief... talk to the dispatchers (if they are large enough). How are the employees, are they disgruntled? Do not assume that a school with a high instructor turn over is a poor school.

 

Do they have a sim? (you want to go EMS, you'll need an IFR) Do they have a good IFR trainer? Who does thier maint and what is their safety and incident record. Do they keep track of thier own accidents/incidents... are they willing to talk about thier own mistakes and what they have learned from them. If not.... you get the idea.

 

I would not give up on the 22. I learned initially in the 300 and the rest in the 22, it is an excellent trainer with an excellent safety record. I'm not saying you have to fly it, but do not pick the school because of the 300, pick the school because its the best fit for you.

 

I think I'm familiar with your school (the Hillsboro, Or location gave you away). I have looked into Hillsboro quite a bit, and you do seem to have an excellent set up. I bet I have watched that DVD a thousand times! It really is just a matter of y'all flying R22s that disqualifies you. I wouldnt be so dead set on the Schweizers if I hadn't already gone out and ridden in both. I'm not a little guy, and I'm just not comfortable in the R22. If I'm not confortable, I'm not relaxed. If I'm not relaxed, I won't be able to train up to my full potential. The 300s just seem to fit me so much better, it really is a prerequisite for me.

 

To draw on my law enforcement experiance, it's sort of like the Crown Vic Vs Caprice debate. Crown Vics are good cars. But compared to a Caprice, they just scare the hell out of me.

[ascott20]

Are standardized training programs bad at all? It goes to reason that a program gets standardized because it works (in general). My experience is with standardized training programs, and I know people who have trained with smaller operators, but the training, from what I gather, is very similar.

 

Off topic: Iraq? What branch of the military are you in? I was Navy.

 

 

Standardized programs aren't bad at all, and most schools have them (Any school with FAA Part 141 is standardized.) Sometimes though, with large volume programs like Bristow, SSH, etc; the students are only trained to the minimum level of the requirements by often very junior CFIs. While this is good for the student's pocketbook, the students don't get as personal connection with their instructors and also are forced to fly within that schools SOPs (most large schools have these because they are so large their flying programs require a lot of control). Smaller schools (including ones like Tomlinson and Glacier with professional programs) tend to be able to cater more to the individual student and have more experienced instructors who can teach students better technique than just what's in a flight training guide. Like anything, a more equal ratio between students to instructors always equates to a better education. Like I said before, I really don't have anything negative to say about Bristow (Helicopter Adventures) except that I personally don't like large factory programs.

 

As for Iraq, I'm a MEDEVAC pilot in the Army. For some odd reason, I decided to end my civilian career early and apply my skills as a public servant:)

 

More_Cowbell: to answer your question, Tomlinson offers all the training that Bristow does, and because of their size can and probably will get it for you faster. Regarding scheduling, I don't know how busy they are right now, so I can't comment on that. As far as employment, when I was there (including myself), everybody found a job. NO SCHOOL however, can guarantee a job. To fill positions a couple times, Tomlinson hired some Bristow (Helicopter Adventures) instructors, despite Bristow's then claim of 100% job hiring for instructors. Like all the fixed-wing academies, the large helo schools can only get you an interview with an affiliated/sponsored company. That company is not obligated to hire you, nor will they only look to that school for employment needs. It is a business venture, not a socialized job program. By the way, if you have the experience that the particular company is looking for you, you'll get the interview anyway.

 

Good luck with your training!

[aclark79]

I think I'm familiar with your school (the Hillsboro, Or location gave you away). I have looked into Hillsboro quite a bit, and you do seem to have an excellent set up. If I'm not confortable, I'm not relaxed. If I'm not relaxed, I won't be able to train up to my full potential. The 300s just seem to fit me so much better, it really is a prerequisite for me.

 

 

Thanks, I think we do it the right way, but I'm certainly not unbiased.

 

Weight is always an issue with an R22, if you aren't able to get down to 200 pounds then you have a much tougher time getting a job as an R22 instructor. A school like mine, which has 300s, does not hire 300 instructors, we hire 22 instructors who are also qualified to teach in the 300. Being both is great, but if you didn't do the majority of your time in the 22, well you may have the 50 hours, but you can't compete with guys with 150 22 and 50 300....

 

No matter what, train in what you are most comforatable in, I agree with that 100 percent. If you are a 300 man due to comfort, target schools that only have 300's, those are the ones you want to end up working for while your build your time.

 

If you know you don't have to build time as a CFI (original poster), then I say refer to my original advice and the advice given. Just do yourself a favor, cast a wide net and visit the schools... take a small vacation, see what they are like... then if nothing else you will feel that you made the right decision with such an important part of your career.

[Wally]

First of all, thanks for the encouragement. It does seem a little daunting at the moment, but thanks to this thread and my independent research I feel I should be able to make at least a halfway informed decision pretty soon. I have to say that I find myself agreeing with your point of view for the most part. I want the absolute best training to build upon.

 

Who are the folks in Rialto that you mentioned as an example of professional level training? Are they the only one out of the three that do the specialized mountain/autorotation training for LE, or do all three that you mentioned?

 

If you don't mind me asking, since you've succeeded in the very area that insterests me most, What training and career path got you to where you are now? And, how many hours a month do you fly on average?

 

 

I'm the product of the most standardized and biggest school ever: the Vietnam-era US Army. On graduation, I did my year "in-country" flying Hueys for a Cobra outfit. No combat assaults (troop insertions), but about everything else the Army wanted to do with a helicopter, half of which was done at night, pre-NVG. I'm long since militarily obsolete...

Finished my obligation with a tour at Ft Wolters teaching US and Vietnamese students to fly the TH-55 to approximately FAA commercial standards. After the service I had normal non-flying jobs for years. Then, I CFI-ed for a while, twenty-some years ago.

Left that for 13 years at PHI in the Gulf of Mexico, flying the ubiquitous 206 series and Twinstars. Got an ATP on my own at Bell Helicopters, and eventually moved into a 412 IFR SIC position. Left that to be a "stay at home Dad" for 4 years when I started a new family.

Hired on to a local Rocky Mountain Helicopters EMS program, going on seven years ago. In 2002(?) RMH was bought by Air Methods Corp, the biggest private helo EMS operator in the US. I average 180 annual hours, which is close to average for the industry. EMS is feast or famine, I might go a week with one run, or be out on patient runs for the entire 14 hours of duty. My slackest month in EMS is a good day in the Gulf- 8 hoours; my high time month isn't a good week, about 35 hours.

I'm the base lead pilot (paper-work flunky and management whipping boy) at the moment.

 

The operator and school I'm referring to in Rialto, CA. is, I believe, Western Helicopters. Never been there and don't know anybody who has, but all the articles in the trade publications lead me to believe it's a very special place. If you're going to have to move anyhow...

I think this is their web page:

 

http://www.westernhelicopters.com/

 

I'm very lucky to have had the opportunity to have flown with some truly great instructors over the years, some with tens of thousands of hours, some with a few hundred. Naturally, I've also flown with many "average" instructors and a few who couldn't empty the proverbial boot, military and civilian.

 

The work you put into learning will be the key to how well you do. The instructor's the catalyst and the school's the vessel the process takes place in. That's very poor analogy, because the teacher/student interaction is a very unpredictable, personal process. What you'll need to get your ticket is the minimums, and there's no getting around it. Any competent professional can teach any semi-motivated and reasonably intelligent person that subject matter, and you can take that to the bank. The flip side- any reasonably intelligent and motivated person can LEARN much more than the FAA minimum. The military flight schools prove that. Additionally, military flight school students FLY (or flew, when I was doing it) to the FAA commercial standard at 110 hours or so. They're not supermen. Of course, if all you want is to meet the minimums...

 

The type of aircraft trained in is almost immaterial, except that it'll be what the school and teacher have at hand. I've never seen any difference in pilots who learned on Hillers or Robbies. That said, anybody can fly a Schweizer, but you have to meet the SFAR minimums to teach in a R22- something to think about.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Wally

[clay]

Thanks for the tips. Salaika actually sounds like a pretty good candidate. I have read good things about the Enstroms before. Those that fly them seem to really love them. My question is where do you go from there? Enstroms don't seem to be all that common. Was finding a CFI job after you left there more difficult than if you had trained in 300s? Less difficult because there's not as many Enstrom pilots floating around?

 

Enstroms do make it more difficult to find that job, but most Enstrom schools will put you to work when you finish. sorry to step on peoples toes in here, but I prefer going up in something safer than something more popular. Its all about how much work your willing to put into it. I did my hunting, and I'm doing alright... all about commitment. what you put in, you'll get out

[More_Cowbell]

I'm the product of the most standardized and biggest school ever: the Vietnam-era US Army. On graduation, I did my year "in-country" flying Hueys for a Cobra outfit. No combat assaults (troop insertions), but about everything else the Army wanted to do with a helicopter, half of which was done at night, pre-NVG. I'm long since militarily obsolete...

Finished my obligation with a tour at Ft Wolters teaching US and Vietnamese students to fly the TH-55 to approximately FAA commercial standards. After the service I had normal non-flying jobs for years. Then, I CFI-ed for a while, twenty-some years ago.

Left that for 13 years at PHI in the Gulf of Mexico, flying the ubiquitous 206 series and Twinstars. Got an ATP on my own at Bell Helicopters, and eventually moved into a 412 IFR SIC position. Left that to be a "stay at home Dad" for 4 years when I started a new family.

Hired on to a local Rocky Mountain Helicopters EMS program, going on seven years ago. In 2002(?) RMH was bought by Air Methods Corp, the biggest private helo EMS operator in the US. I average 180 annual hours, which is close to average for the industry. EMS is feast or famine, I might go a week with one run, or be out on patient runs for the entire 14 hours of duty. My slackest month in EMS is a good day in the Gulf- 8 hoours; my high time month isn't a good week, about 35 hours.

I'm the base lead pilot (paper-work flunky and management whipping boy) at the moment.

 

The operator and school I'm referring to in Rialto, CA. is, I believe, Western Helicopters. Never been there and don't know anybody who has, but all the articles in the trade publications lead me to believe it's a very special place. If you're going to have to move anyhow...

I think this is their web page:

 

http://www.westernhelicopters.com/

 

I'm very lucky to have had the opportunity to have flown with some truly great instructors over the years, some with tens of thousands of hours, some with a few hundred. Naturally, I've also flown with many "average" instructors and a few who couldn't empty the proverbial boot, military and civilian.

 

The work you put into learning will be the key to how well you do. The instructor's the catalyst and the school's the vessel the process takes place in. That's very poor analogy, because the teacher/student interaction is a very unpredictable, personal process. What you'll need to get your ticket is the minimums, and there's no getting around it. Any competent professional can teach any semi-motivated and reasonably intelligent person that subject matter, and you can take that to the bank. The flip side- any reasonably intelligent and motivated person can LEARN much more than the FAA minimum. The military flight schools prove that. Additionally, military flight school students FLY (or flew, when I was doing it) to the FAA commercial standard at 110 hours or so. They're not supermen. Of course, if all you want is to meet the minimums...

 

The type of aircraft trained in is almost immaterial, except that it'll be what the school and teacher have at hand. I've never seen any difference in pilots who learned on Hillers or Robbies. That said, anybody can fly a Schweizer, but you have to meet the SFAR minimums to teach in a R22- something to think about.

 

First of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to help out some random stranger make a very difficult decision. It's guys like you, and several others on here, that really encourage me and remove any doubt that this is the best move for me.

 

I got out of law enforcement after close to ten years because I just couldn't stand the corruption any more. I got into real estate purely for the money. But no amount of money is worth dealing with the pettiness, backstabbing, and bickering that goes along with it. It's getting worse every day now that it's not quite the source of free money it was a year or two ago too. The primary motivation for this career change was motivated by my love of flying. But, the more I have looked into it, what tells me I'm right is the people I will be working with. I really look forward to working alongside guys like you.

 

My dad flew in Vietnam as well. He flew Hueys with the 4ID in 68-69 then in Alaska till his discharge. I don't think he's stepped foot in anything smaller than a 737 since. Growing up I was fascinated with helicopters, and specifically flying in the Gulf after a family vacation to Galveston when I was about 11 or 12. Watching T.C. zip around in that little 500D every week only made it worse!.

 

My dad really discouraged the idea and always said that they don't make squat and it's a pretty crappy job. I think it was when he got out of the Army in the early 70's ... but I think times have changed quite a bit since then. When it came time for me to do my time in the Army, I really wanted to shoot for flight school. But, they wouldn't sign anything that guaranteed anything but Blackhawk mechanic contract (which they assured me was just a technicality ... you just gotta love recruiters). Instead, I just went and did my enlistment as a cav scout with the 3/17CAV and forgot about flying to pursue my other interests.

 

Thanks for pointing out Western Helicopters. Along with your reply, I got a couple of PMs mentioning them as being considered top tier in the industry. When I saw their website, I remembered having looked into them a couple of months ago. They seemed extremely helpful and all around nice people. I hadn't followed up with them because I honestly just didn't want to live in LA for the amount of time required to train there. But, now that I am thinking of doing this in blocks at different schools they are definitely back in the running. Plus, they have a 500D ... I can already hear myself humming the Magnum PI theme!

 

I was surprised to see that you don't fly very many hours. From my front porch I can sit and watch the EMS helos come and go from WNJ hospital about a half mile away. I believe it's Life Star that flies either a 206L or 407 out of there (I can't tell the difference from that far myself). It seems like they're constantly on the move. I would take a SWAG that they fly at least 10-15 missions a day from that fairly small hospital. But now that I think about it ... I bet most EMS flights, outside of transfers, aren't more than 10 or 15 minutes in duration are they?